WAGNER (00:00)

So it’s okay to be wrong. That doesn’t make you a bad person. I think some people confuse that. It is never personal. Business and personal are way different things and be open to you might be wrong and that’s okay. And if you firmly believe it and they don’t just try to help them understand why you’re doing this.

ADAMS (00:43)

In this episode, I speak with Dr. Robert Wagner, the Associate Laboratory Director for the Energy Science and Technology Directorate at Oak Ridge National Laboratory. In this role, Robert leads more than 550 researchers and operations staff focused on developing advanced technology solutions in manufacturing, buildings, transportation, and electrical grid infrastructure. Robert’s path into engineering was shaped by a love for math and physics and inspired by his older brothers who also studied engineering. After a transformative internship at Oak Ridge National Lab, he pursued graduate school and eventually rose from postdoc to associate lab director, guided by strong mentorship and a commitment to technical excellence. In our leadership segment, Robert shares how he embraced leadership roles despite being introverted after encouragement from mentors.

A key challenge was navigating stakeholder alignment across a nine lab, $125 million national consortium, which he solved through collaborative planning, transparency, and trust building. In our advice segment, Robert emphasizes not rushing into leadership, encouraging engineers to first build a solid technical foundation. He advocates for servant leadership, visible engagement, and understanding that leadership is about influence, not just managing people.

Without further delay, here is my conversation with Dr. Robert Wagner.

ADAMS (02:08)

Robert, welcome to Mastering Engineering Leadership.

WAGNER (02:11)

Well, thank you. Thank you for having me.

ADAMS (02:13)

Excellent. Can you start by telling us how you got into engineering as a career field?

WAGNER (02:17)

Probably like most, I was always good at math and science. What probably really pushed me that way in the end is both of my brothers went into engineering and I followed them. Missouri has a really good engineering school and it just seemed like the right thing to do with where my interests were. I wasn’t one of these people that was always taking things apart. I did work on like motorcycles and cars, but it was out of necessity, not a not a want to do that. What probably really hooked me in the end was I love math and physics and I’m one of these, I don’t think there’s anything like this, I like to do, I like to derive things. So when I got into college and you know whether it was math, physics, trig, what have you, where there were some really interesting derivations, I would often go filling the blanks on my own because I was just really curious how that came to be. So I think that’s what really motivated me to go down that path.

ADAMS (03:13)

And you selected mechanical engineering. Was there anything specific behind that choice?

WAGNER (03:19)

I chose it originally because I wasn’t sure what I wanted to do. I I liked engineering. And when I took a class on thermodynamics, that’s what really, really pulled me in. I’m very much interested in heat transfer, mass transfer, things like that. And fundamentally, that’s what led me to Oak Ridge originally as a student was that topic.

ADAMS (03:41)

Okay. And you mentioned that your brothers also went into engineering. Do you come from an engineering family or was it just sort of the first brother just happened to pick it and then the rest of you followed? How’d that happen?

WAGNER (03:51)

My parents, neither of them went to college. My dad had a real estate business in a campground in very rural Missouri. So we all three grew up working on the campground helping him there. But he was still a very smart man and he always wanted to help us pursue whatever we wanted in terms of education. He just never had that opportunity.

ADAMS (04:10)

And then you decide to go to graduate school. So what had you decided to keep going?

WAGNER (04:15)

So when I came to Oak Ridge as an undergraduate summer intern, more than 30 years ago now, and I was coming from rural Missouri, so keep that in mind, I wasn’t local. My brother had been here the year before. He’s a nuclear engineer. And we lived together at the time, and he came back and he said, you should fill out this application. It was really a great experience. And this is back when you filled out an application and you mailed it, they would mail you back and so I did that and I got a letter, you know, from them to come work for them. It was really a bit terrifying. I’d never been that far from home. I was kind of a country kid. School was only 80 miles from my parents and but I sort of just I’ll say I sucked it up and I went and

It was a life-changing experience. I worked for a person named Stuart Daw, who was a corporate fellow at Oak Ridge. He since has passed away and he was an amazing mentor. And from day one, he made me comfortable. He inspired me to continue in to grad school because I didn’t have that plan at the time. And not only that, the topic that I did that summer ended up being the topic of my dissertation, but sort of the next level.

And I still remember the first day when I went, back then there was only like 50 of us that were students and we all came in together and they hand you a little three by five card and on it said my topic was combustion and chaos. Two things I need nothing about. So anyway, I worked for Stuart. It really put me on path, changed my career. And an interesting side note is when I went back to Missouri and then I went to grad school and Stuart was on my committee.

the topic I mentioned, I did that same topic. He it started a new research area for the university. It continued out of my my my advisors first PhD student. It continued until he retired in 2022. So he found funding to carry that for, you know, I guess about 25 years and had lots of students come through. So that was really satisfying.

And then another interesting aspect of that was his final graduate student worked with us here at Oak Ridge. On this topic.

ADAMS (06:26)

Wow, it’s like a full circle, yeah.

WAGNER (06:29)

So when she graduated in 2022, this wasn’t planned, but I was the commencement speaker for the PhD graduate. And so we book ended it. I was first PhD student, and then I spoke at commencement for his last one on the topic that started with Stuart Daw from Oak Ridge, me being an intern for him. And we didn’t even tell him I was coming. He figured it out late, because he would be there. And we thought, this would be a fun surprise.

ADAMS (06:37)

Wow, yeah.

Yeah, wow, that’s amazing.

That’s a great story. Can you talk a little bit more about Stuart’s mentorship? I mean, you said that it really had a significant impact on you. Were there any specific things that he did that come to mind in terms of really resonating with you and helping shape you as a young engineer that, as you said, you were well outside your comfort zone when you started at Oak Ridge?

WAGNER (07:20)

He was always welcoming, always patient. He wanted to teach me, not tell me. And even, you if you fast forward after that first summer when I was in graduate school and I starting to write publications and he wanted me to be good at that. And he helped me learn how to do that. Sometimes that was by some pretty harsh editing. Sure. discussion on what he was trying to get at. He was just welcoming.

and not judgmental. it’s a he was a really, really special person. He was the mentor to a lot of different people. At that time, there’s a group of us that went through and one of them is a lab director now another lab. The others are very successful. They were under him. So I think him how he treated me really shaped how I treat people. Now, I think about Stuart a lot still. And then I’ll add the

Over the years, know, so that that was in 1992. So that’s 33 years ago. Consistently, as you can see, well, you can see not everybody who’s maybe listening, I don’t have much on my walls. I never do. But the one thing that is always hung on my wall is that summer certificate 1992 signed by Stuart Daw and it’s actually the lower one. Yeah, wow. Because it just still meant it means so much to me.

ADAMS (08:37)

Yeah, that’s amazing and an amazing legacy that he has left. I’m sure that if I were to talk to the other people who he’s mentored, they would have very similar things to say about him, which is really incredible.

WAGNER (08:48)

And he, you know, my advice to people who are going to mentor and I remind folks that I work with often is when they’re getting ready, we’re bringing summer interns in is you can make or break someone. And if you’re not ready to lean into it and help them help shape their life, don’t do it. It’s not cheap labor. It’s a, it’s an opportunity.

ADAMS (09:09)

Absolutely. And so you had such a great experience as a summer intern, and now you’ve been with the lab for many years. Can you talk a little bit about your career trajectory here at the lab?

WAGNER (09:22)

Yeah, so my plan was always to be, I wanted to be the best researcher I could be. And I love doing research. I’m very introverted. Actually, I just did a Hogan assessment test. don’t know if you’ve done And it clearly shows I am, but you learn how to, I guess, suppress that a bit when you need to engage in situations like this. And so I was very focused on research.

I didn’t engage with my leadership much until one time another person who was really influential on me, person named John Story, you know, I was early in my career, maybe a couple of years in, and he was like, you have really good ideas. You should go talk to Ron Graves, who was another wonderful mentor, who was our program manager, and just go and sit with him and chat with him. And so I started doing that. And Ron’s just like me.

We’re very quiet. So anyway, it led to really good discussions. It kind of brought me I think out of my shell. But still, I’m a researcher. That’s what I want to do. And in 2012, so I started here in 99 as a postdoc. 2012, I’d run the research ladder to distinguished. I was never probably gonna be a corporate fellow, which is the highest level at Oak Ridge. And but I was happy, what I wanted to do. They call it career plateau. I didn’t care. I was doing what I want to do.

And Johney Green, who was my division director one day said, I want you to run this group for me. And it’s like, I don’t think so. He’s like, So, uh, so I started, uh, we know how that turned out group leader. And then over the years, you know, I was a program manager and it, at one point, this division director position came open. And then I was never, ever thought of being a division director.

ADAMS (10:45)

and

Yeah, right.

WAGNER (11:03)

And I thought, you know what, I have ideas. I think I could do this. And if I’m not the right person, the interview will sort that out. I’ve never gone into an interview where I didn’t feel I already have a great job and I wouldn’t be here if I wasn’t interested, but I’m not going to be mad. And I’m still going to go do my other job as best I can. And then several years later, the associate lab director job never thought of that ever. And I thought, well, I have ideas. I’ll at least throw my hat in.

And I got the interview and just, you know, went into it to being honest. This is what I think this is what I would do. But again, I’m very happy in what I’m doing. So if I match what they want, then happy to jump in and do it. I did not plan to be here.

ADAMS (11:46)

Yeah, I think that’s often the case. I often hear leaders say, I did not plan to be here, which I think is really refreshing because, you know, a lot of my audience is students and many of them really feel like I need to have this, you know, everything planned out. And if I deviate from that, they feel like a failure somehow. And many of the most successful people I’ve talked to like yourself say, I basically took opportunities as they came my way maybe even reluctantly took some of the opportunities.

Like sounds like the one of the first ones you were volun-told that you were going to be a leader.

So I’m curious about you being introverted, being quiet, being happy where you were. How did you then pivot to these leadership roles? Or how did you kind of grow into becoming more comfortable in these leadership roles that often do require you to be more public facing

WAGNER (12:41)

In a lot of ways I’m still working on it. And, you know, I think what made me finally be willing to do it is Johney saw something in me. And, you know, and I have tremendous respect for Johney. And so if he’s asking me, he’s asking me for a reason, I’m going to try it. And it takes a while. Because my nature is not to just go engage with people. I’m still usually the person that

is maybe standing in the back of the room listening and then eventually I’ll show myself and have something to say. I’m not the one driving the conversation, at least initially. You just get out of your comfort zone. I remember I used to be so, you have to make yourself do it. And like I said, when I first went to Oak Ridge that summer and it was very, very scary. We didn’t have cell phones, we didn’t have GPS. I had a broken down car.

And I remember the day I got the letter and it was terrifying, but I made myself do it. And you just have to do that you’ll get comfortable with it. And you know, I used to get so worked up to go give a presentation to a big crowd. And now I don’t care how big they are. I don’t even worry anymore. You, you will get there. People might think that’s impossible. I’m always nervous. You will get comfortable. And, that’s a good thing. It’s not that you’re comfortable with how you’re going to prepare and how you’re going to do things. It’s just that audience doesn’t bother you.

More, you’re the expert on the stage. But it takes time. It’s, it’s hard. And even now, if you looked at my Hogan assessment, it’s going to say that I need to try to remember how to put this exactly some of the 360 feedback. But like if I’m in a meeting with the leadership team, I need to lean in more and engage more, because I am more one that’ll sit back and, and listen and, not, you know, not be too forceful. So I’m still working on it.

ADAMS (14:21)

Yeah, that’s great to hear. And so how do you think about your own leadership development? So here you are, very senior leadership role, rose through the ranks step by step. How do you think about your own leadership development and continuing to move forward with your own skills?

WAGNER (14:36)

I think if I am good at this role, it’s because I’ve lived all these other roles. And so I can have a student talking to me, well, it’s been a lot of years and you tend to forget, I can relate to what they’re thinking. I understand the people that are running programs while they’re trying to be group leaders and they’re trying to be researchers. And I won’t say I’ve been there, done that, but I understand the experience of it and the challenges that all these positions face.

think most important is, this is probably overused, but that servant leadership approach, I’ve accomplished way more in my career than I ever could have guessed. I mean, that was 10 years ago. You know, it’s beyond whatever I I would do. So it’s not about me. And if you’re in a leadership position, it’s not about you. It’s about the people in the organization. You need to be past that. I need all the accolades and I need people patting me on the back.

And I sincerely mean that it’s again, I’m the guy that stands in the corner and make sure things are working and I’m very happy doing.

ADAMS (15:48)

All right, Robert, can you give us an example of when you had to use your leadership skills?

WAGNER (15:52)

I have a few examples where you have to, it’s usually about aligning diverse teams to manage disagreements and figuring out how we move forward together. Cause not everybody’s always going to agree. But you have to, you have to be that person in the room that pulls it together and gets people aligned. And that could be whether it’s a research goal or an HR kind of issue. I’m known for, don’t mind getting really awkward.

The meeting, you know, get comfortable with that. It’s okay. If you’re not getting awkward, nothing’s probably happening. In the end, you should all be walking out on the same page or close as you can. One example that comes to mind is I, for six years, I was part of the leadership team of a nine national laboratory consortium. And there was about 200 people touching it. The goal was to be $150 million. It ended up, I think, being 125 or 130.

And you all different labs, different cultures, and we had to get everybody going together. And so I was part of the, there’s a four person leadership team. And then two of those six years, I was the principal investigator for it. So I was the point of it. And every summer is when we’d get together and we would do battle over projects and money. And it’s a lot of money. So the goal was 25 million a year. So it’s a lot of money. the DOE has to approve, but we have to get a plan to them to approve. And when I took it over, I had the benefit of we were, I think, three years into it and had been through this a few times. And I looked at statistically what we’d done and I said, OK, here’s kind of the amount of funding each lab has gotten. Let’s just, and I got this proof idea. I said, let’s say all the labs get this much. That’s your base. And then we’ll keep a little bit of money aside and we can debate it a bit.

So I took money off the table and what I found is people brought me way better ideas. Before they’re being very, very conservative because their fear is if they put an idea up and people don’t agree, then they lose funding. And they have researchers and they have other obligations. And so we took it off the table just where you have this amount of money. And that worked great. We had real conversations.

we could talk about what they’re proposing and we could tweak it together. And there was never this fear that you’re not going to have funding. So that was really important to do. And I had to get buy-in from the rest of the leadership team. had to get buy-in from the Department of Energy. And then all the labs had specific leads. Do you need to get buy-in? And in the end, everybody was great with it and it really worked. It doesn’t always turn out that way, but that was the case where it did work. And there are times where you’ll lean in and really try to lead and maybe think just don’t work how they should have. And you can make mistakes. That’s okay. Or your team will bend you to a different solution that’s better. You always have to be open to that as well.

Trying to think of another example. There’s the HR ones or, you I don’t think we think about that because this is more about research and engineering, but it’s all very important.

I had a situation, we had a big project with an external sponsor. And I would have, was a group leader at the time and I’d have one person come to me with one story, another person come to me with another story. They firmly believed it. You know, they weren’t playing games. They, they believe that perspective. And I remember getting them both in the room. And this is the first time I did this and just said, you’re saying this, you’re saying this. And I didn’t say another word until one of them broke.

And then they got mad but we sorted it out and we walked out of the room. Sponsor is happier for it because I forgot I left this part out. The reason I did this is because originally the sponsor called me and was wondering what are we doing? And so I had to my arms around it. So just jump into the middle of it. it’s not going to fix itself. You have to fix.

ADAMS (19:39)

Yeah, absolutely. And I love the idea of talking about something like an HR issue because we don’t get that in school, As much as we study engineering, we often don’t talk about these things. And very quickly, in a leadership role, whether it’s a team leadership or project leadership or organizational leadership, you will quickly find yourself in these situations that we may not know how to handle. So I appreciate you talking about that.

WAGNER (20:03)

You have to go into it also assuming everybody has the best of intention. And you may get proven wrong, but start there. And that’s how, again, that was such a memorable experience for me too, because it changed, I learned a lot on how to approach these things. But I knew both of these people very well as researchers with them for years. They were good people. They just were disagreeing or had misunderstandings.

ADAMS (20:08)

Yes.

WAGNER (20:26)

I think if you start that way, you can’t go wrong. Even if you’re proving wrong to someone’s being malicious, give them the benefit of the doubt to get going. You can change your opinion on that later and deal with it.

ADAMS (20:37)

Yeah, I think that’s great advice. And then going back to the other example you gave us about the multiple labs needing to come to agreement on approach. I’m curious how you approached those different conversations. So it sounds like maybe you started with, maybe let’s have a new way of doing this. It sounds like you reduced the downside risk of the funding. So everybody’s going to get this minimum. And that, as you said, opened up some creativity. But I’m sure not everyone said, oh, yeah, that’s a perfect idea. Everybody, let’s do that.

It didn’t, that’s not how these things work. So can you talk a little bit just about your strategy around trying to get buy-in from a large group of stakeholders with all varying interests?

WAGNER (21:19)

So with this, was just really lucky, to be honest, that we had such good people on the leadership team and the three other people on the four-person leadership team, including, and then a fifth person who had stepped away, who I could talk to about these things too. I they’re all very supportive. The one thing about this team, it was a nine lab consortium, but it was, the four-person team was for the labs, so four people. And we had gotten very good at it being non-porochial in how we manage this. And if somebody was starting to get a little parochial, because it’s natural, it happens, we would call them out and make sure they’re aware of it. And I don’t remember a single time where, whether it me or somebody else said, you’re right, I was wearing my lab hat too much. So I was talking to them, I was talking to the other leaders and it really, I got, I getting lucky. It was not hard because they knew we had a problem and this was the way to fix it.

Again, everybody was just in agreement. mean, there are times though, I’m trying to think if I have another example off the top of my head, because that was such a long experience and very complicated, that they’re just not going to agree. And that’s okay too.

Not everything’s run by consensus. So sometimes you just have to do what’s gonna move us forward as an organization. And it may not be clear to everybody, but that’s the hard part of the job, you make the decision.

And tying back to HR, you will have these issues too. You have to make the hard decision. was just telling this, I was talking to HR this morning, I had an HR meeting on a different topic. We were working on succession planning, which is really important. And I made the comment, you have to make a decision even if it’s wrong in hindsight, because not making one is not an option. I used to be a person that overthought things. This is why I was good researcher probably, right? I overanalyzed.

Very careful and sort of one of my rules now is you get to where you’re 80 % sure and you move. You can’t wait beyond that.

ADAMS (23:15)

And how do you handle either your own uncertainty or maybe people coming to you with complaints? I have to imagine that you probably hear a lot of people who don’t like decisions either that you made or that even other lab leadership made that maybe you’re carrying out. How do you handle dealing with that kind of negative feedback?

WAGNER (23:35)

Yeah, you just try to help them. Sometimes if it’s about me, you know, maybe it’ll help me learn that, okay, maybe that wasn’t a great decision and I see your perspective and I’m always open to that. So it’s okay to be wrong. That doesn’t make you a bad person. I think some people confuse that. It is never personal. Business and personal are way different things and be open to you might be wrong and that’s okay. And if you firmly believe it and they don’t just try to help them understand why you’re doing this.

I don’t know. Good answer is never because it’s because I was thinking this and this is why we have to do this. Right. And to kind of head some of that off, communication is everything. So don’t let people be surprised. Make sure you’ve been communicating what you’re thinking, where you’re going to give people chance to weigh in. Now, sometimes you have to make very quick decisions. But if that’s the case, it’s not a debate anyway. That’s why you have that role.

For you to make that decision. But yeah, feedbacks, you know, lot of people have a lot of thoughts and I’m glad that they’re not shy about sharing them. I will say if you’re on the other side of it though and you have an issue, be respectful. Try to keep an open mind to why they made the decision. There is a reason. Nothing is random. Even now I know there’s a lot of angst, there’s a lot of things going on. There’s reasons for all the decisions. You just may not know them. And it took me a while to get to the point.

In my career right here, this was done and that was done and it seems malicious or it’s like random and it’s not. There’s a reason that decision was made and if it’s a big decision, it wasn’t made lightly.

ADAMS (25:14)

Robert, what advice would you give to engineers who are interested in pursuing leadership roles?

WAGNER (25:19)

The most important thing I can say is do not be in a hurry. I have watched people who have been accelerated on leadership roles where maybe they’re successful in terms of they’re climbing the ladder, but if they don’t have the foundation they need, they’re not gonna truly be successful. And especially in the engineering, this is very engineering specific comment. Become a researcher, define your base.

Be technically strong so that when you stop doing that and you become a leader, people know that. They respect your technical opinion, what you’re saying. Again, I’ve seen, have multiple cases I won’t share, but in my head where I don’t think people are near as successful as they could be because they don’t have the respect of being an engineer to go with it. Now do realize industry perhaps is different and how they approach these things. So it’s very much a lab centric kind of thought, but

Have a base, don’t be in a hurry. You know, two or three years out of college, you shouldn’t expect to be running a big team. Some people are, they’re naturals. And I’ve seen that too, and they’re fine, and they go and they continue to do really well. But most, me included or not, you we need that time to build who we are.

ADAMS (26:29)

When you think about maybe the difference in skills and day-to-day life of a researcher versus a leader, is there anything that you would point to to maybe help someone think about how they might make that transition?

WAGNER (26:42)

Always be visible. Step up, don’t be shy. You know, I told you earlier on in this, how I, I was kind of kept to myself. I didn’t say things. And when I finally did go engage and share my thoughts, which was hard, you know, I had to consciously think about that and go do it. that probably is what put me on the path

It might be hard, but, do it, do it anyway. And that’ll, that’ll slowly put you on that path. And one thing else I’ll add too is everybody thinks they need to be a manager of people and leadership and management are not the same things. If you have, good manager, he’s also a good leader, that’s bonus, but they are not the same thing. One of the best leaders I probably ever had was I mentioned Stuart Daw, who was my mentor when I was a student and through my dissertation and through life, you know, until he passed away. He was never a group leader. He did become what they call corporate fellow later in his career, but he was, I’ll say, just a researcher, you know, when I started engaging with him and when he trained all of us, but boy, he was a leader. And he’s a leader not because he says he’s a leader, it’s just by his actions. In fact, if I said, boy Stuart, you’re a leader, he’d be like, I don’t know what you’re talking It wasn’t his thought. So don’t confuse the two. You do not have to manage people to be a leader in your community or in your company.

ADAMS (28:06)

Hi everyone, Angelique here. I’ve got some bonus footage for you. After Robert and I finished his official interview, we were chatting a bit and he mentioned that he’s been keeping a running list of lessons he’s learned throughout his career. He has over 50 of them. He shared one of them with me and agreed to let me share it with you. So here is Robert with one of his lessons learned.

WAGNER (28:27)

It’s fun just to chat about lessons learned.

One of these days I’ll have to share my, uh, it’s up to, I have it on my board. It’s up to 51, my 51 lessons learned in my career.

You know, one of my favorite lessons learned, I’ll share this one with you, because I think about it almost every day as a manager and engaging with people is, sorry, it’s a little bit of story, but I’ll be quick. I taught applied thermodynamics when I was a PhD student. And in Missouri, they just like, here’s your class, see you at the end of the semester. Know what I mean? And so I was maybe a month into the semester, I’m not sure, maybe six weeks in.

And I ran into this professor, this older guy, very wise and you know, he’s really another really wonderful person. And he was like, well, how do you like this? I was like, I hate it. It’s terrible. And he was really surprised. And he’s like, why, why is that? I was like, no one cares. You know, they simply don’t care. I got a couple, yeah, they work hard, but for the most part, they simply don’t care. And he’s like, you just made a huge fundamental mistake.

And I was like, wow, okay, so what was that mistake? He’s like, you thought everybody was like you and your friends and they are not. And he’s like, you know, focus on the ones you can relate to be there for the ones that don’t seem to care if they ask for help and just move on. And I did that and I loved it after that. But this whole idea that we all think everybody’s like we are is with just a, it was enlightening to hear somebody tell me that and make me think about it a little bit. So.

A lot of them have stories like that. There was something that made me write that down over years.

ADAMS (30:03)

May I leave the story about the thermal class in the podcast? Sure. OK.

WAGNER (30:08)

Sure.

It was one my early lessons where I think I need to, I need to make sure I think about that.

ADAMS (30:14)

Robert, thank you very much for sharing your insights with us.

WAGNER (30:17)

Thank you. This was fun.