MEL #002 | Navigating Challenging Conversations with Dr. Joy Harris

✨Note: This transcript is AI-generated and may contain minor inaccuracies; refer to the audio for complete details.

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HARRIS: I think that just remembering that as we navigate different critical conversations. 

If we lead with a spirit of, want to make sure that after this conversation is had, we don’t hate each other. That we still have a great relationship. It changes how you would approach a person.

ADAMS: In this episode, I speak with Dr. Joy Harris, Executive Officer of Entrepreneurship and Director of the Entrepreneurship and Innovation Institute at the Robinson College of Business at Georgia State University. Dr. Harris’s journey into engineering started early. As a child, she was identified as being gifted at higher math and attended a boarding school for teens talented in math and science. That led her to a dual enrollment program at Spelman for math and Georgia Tech for electrical engineering.

From there, she had many exciting experiences working in the field, including stints at NASA and Oak Ridge National Lab. She continued her studies, earning a PhD at Princeton, and has spent most of her career in academic leadership, first at Georgia Tech and now at Georgia State. She highlights how important having a strong community and diverse professional network has been to her success. In our leadership segment, Joy draws on her nonprofit experience where she serves as director of the Council for Schools and Services for the Blind. She shares a recent conflict with a new board president who made a decision that negatively impacted her work. She emphasizes the need for self-regulation during peak emotions and the value of suggesting multiple options when seeking a resolution. Finally, Dr. Harris shares advice for aspiring leaders, including the importance of adding value in your current role as a means to opening doors for advancement.

Without further delay, here is my conversation with Dr. Joy Harris.

ADAMS: Hi,Joy. Welcome to Mastering Engineering Leadership. 

HARRIS: Angelique, thank you so much for inviting me. I am already having an amazing time. 

So I appreciate you giving me this invitation and I’m super excited to share my story and I hope that I’m able to help somebody through our conversation together. 

ADAMS: I’m 100 % sure that you will. So can you start by telling us how you got into engineering as a career path?

HARRIS: Yes, reasonably long journey in a condensed story. From the time that I was six years old, I knew that I enjoyed math, science, all the STEM fields, even though when I was six, I can’t say STEM was what it is now, but I’ve always enjoyed taking the higher level math classes in school. I ended up going to boarding school at 16 to the Mississippi School for Mathematics and Science, which definitely prepared me for engineering. And then a friend, told me about a dual degree engineering program at Spelman College in Georgia Tech. Just happened to be a guy who liked me. He went to our brother school at Morehouse and he wanted me to go to school with him. So did not end up being with him, but definitely a career shaping move. 

ADAMS: You kept the part that mattered, which was STEM education. 

HARRIS: Exactly. I have no idea where he is now. It’s okay. He sent me, this was in the time when you had to mail people things. He actually mailed me a scholarship application. wow. NASA. Wow. So I applied to Spelman through the dual degree engineering program and then onto Georgia Tech. I majored in math at Spelman. I majored in electrical engineering at Georgia Tech and I got NASA to pay for it. wow, amazing. So that was amazing. All five years for the degree. And as part of being a NASA scholar, I got to work at NASA as an intern during the summers, which was my first entree into engineering as a field. you know, was surrounded by engineers who were doing different things for different space shuttle missions. And I worked in Mississippi at the NASA Stennis site. But also what was pivotal was the scholarship created a cohort of other women who were also working at different NASA sites. We were all in school together. We had weekly meetings. We were all STEM majors. So different engineering fields, math, physics, chemistry, mechanical engineering, electrical engineering. And we all came together and supported each other. That community, I realize now, was pivotal in forming my perception of what it means to be an engineer. And then also what it looks like on a day-to-day basis. 

Would you believe, I…I had heard this myth in my mind that women were a minority in engineering. And I genuinely thought people were making that up because I was surrounded by men who were majoring in engineering. So I thought this myth, it wasn’t until I got into the real world and how real, Yeah. exactly. okay. 

So after undergrad, During undergrad, I went to a summer program at Howard University that exposed me to graduate school. And that summer program, I decided to get a PhD in electrical engineering. And so I went on to Princeton, I got my PhD. And during this time, I also had the opportunity to do cooperative learning experiences with a consulting firm, the American Competitiveness Institute. I got to evaluate the electronics on Navy ships and to make recommendations.

I also had the opportunity to work at the Oak Ridge National Lab for two summers. And I got to use engineering and build different detectors to use different sensors, just to, again, to do research and to understand how engineers impact life. After graduate school, I got a job at, Exponent Failure Analysis. And this job was super interesting because my clients, basically the whole point of the job was clients will come to us when they got sued. Toyota was the client. There was an unintended acceleration case where his brakes wouldn’t work. And we had to evaluate the entire electronic system to say, no, it was not Toyota’s fault. Spin Master was a client. We evaluated their toys to make sure that they wouldn’t hurt anybody’s child. So I got to see how as an engineer, my work could impact society. And sometimes it is your fault. If it is your fault, we’re ethical. We say, no, it’s your fault. This one right here, your system should have been different. There should have been checks and balances, whatever that is.

After exponent failure analysis group, then I worked as an engineer at Intel and I got to see how engineers build products. And that was interesting because Intel is a global company. got to work with suppliers. get to see just a lot of how the technology is built. actually worked in the fab so I could see that the nuts and bolts of how different products were made. again, as an electrical engineer, my team, there was multifaceted, very diverse group.

So I got to learn a lot about team dynamics and how do you work together to build something great? And after Intel, I decided to come to Georgia Tech as a faculty member and to teach others how to build something great as an engineer. And this is the best job so far because in the past I got to create and develop products. Now I get to develop engineers.

The best part, it is. my goodness. To be for my students what my faculty were for me, my joy, it is my glory for my school to do well. 

ADAMS: that’s great. you know, I mean, we’re kindred spirits in that respect about, having spent time in the field of engineering and then realizing, I really want to develop the next generation of engineers. It took me a lot longer to figure that out than it did you.

Can we go back for a second? You talked a lot about, in the beginning, you were really fortunate to have this community of other women engineers around you. And as you said, you heard people talking about how there aren’t very many women in engineering, and you’re like, what are you talking about?

HARRIS: I can show you 30 right here. 

ADAMS: exactly. So you had that support, you had that foundation early on in your career, which I’m sure was in instrumental. But then, as you said, go to graduate school and I don’t know if Princeton had that type of community or not, but then you get into industry. And I know, least from my own experience, that things change.

What was that like to go from having this huge community of other people that are like you to then go to find yourself working in situations where that was not the case?

HARRIS: Yes. So the shock, first of all, it really was a shock. So I did go from having just being surrounded 30, 50, 100. By the time I got to Princeton, 

I was the only person of color in the entire electrical engineering department for three years. And by the time I graduated, there was two of us. And then there were several classes that I took in spaces that I was in where I was the only person of color. And then there may have been two women, you know, in a room of 20 to 50 men. And I still walk into several rooms where I am the only woman and the only person.

So it was definitely a shock to realize it wasn’t a myth. Okay, people aren’t making this up. But I still had the women in my community even though they weren’t in the room. And so having built that foundation, I still had a lot of people that I could call on and go to for advice, for solidarity.

It’s up to cry and commiserate, but also to celebrate. So still having that community in my spirit and in my being was valuable. But the other benefit is by being grounded in my initial experience, it gave me the confidence to reach out and build a network of engineers who did not look like me.

And once I got out of myself, once I got over the shock of it, I realized, okay, we’re all people. And at the very least, we all want to be engineers. So there’s something, you know, there’s something in common. I very quickly found that I needed to have a network of people who don’t look like me, in addition to those who can support me, who do look like me in order to really be successful in my job. 

ADAMS: Yeah, think that’s so important for our audience to understand is that, really, the professional networking, both from a skills-based professional standpoint, but also the professional networking that comes along with the support side of things, the emotional kind of support side of things, it is absolutely critical. And you really have to take the initiative to build that.

HARRIS: Yes. 

ADAMS: For yourself and be open to it being people of various ages, various demographics from different industries, different experiences. And what I like to tell people is that, we are each multifaceted individuals. And so we’re never going to find, you know, one or two mentors or networking people that are exactly like us anyway. So we might as well go super broad and try to learn from and support as many people as we can. And it sounds like you recognized that early on. You were able to do that. And maybe the skills or, as you said, the confidence from having that support early on and knowing how important it was to you, then you’re able to carry that with you and transition. And I’m curious how you kind of foster that with the students that you work with. How do you help them to recognize that they need to build these broad and diverse networks? And how do you suggest they go about doing that?

HARRIS: Yes. How do I suggest they go about doing that? Well, I always lead with an example. And I tell my students, my absolute best friend in graduate school and even now, who is an engineer, my partner in crime, is a person who, in my opinion, he is opposite of me in every way. First, know, I’m a woman, he’s a man. I am Black, he is Pakistani. I am a Christian, he is atheist. I am a Democrat, he is a Republican.

I don’t know why we are friends. 

ADAMS: On paper, it doesn’t make any sense, right? 

HARRIS: Yeah. No sense whatsoever. But I let them know that he has been such a valuable asset to me, both personally and professionally, for over a decade. And I also am a valuable asset to him. I supported him while he was launching his company. He supported me. He actually recommended me for my first job.

We are just wonderful people. And I let them know that sometimes it doesn’t look like you think it should look. So the networking, the mentors, my best mentors and career champions also have looked nothing like me. And so practically speaking, I tell my students and also the people that I coach, the younger people that I have the honor and pleasure of mentoring professionally. Open yourself up to getting to know people and building authentic connections. If you’re building authentic connections, then you soon realize that the fact that you have different political beliefs and different religious beliefs and a lot of other things, you tend to transcend those because at our core, I would say we’re both reasonable people, we’re both loving people, we just express these things in different ways. But being open to building an authentic connection allows mentors into my life, mentees into my life, as well as champions. I feel like my personal board of directors is just as diverse as any classroom or any corporate boardroom that I have ever been in. And it all comes from being open to having those authentic, genuine relationships. 

ADAMS: Yeah, I think that’s a very important and you embody that and I’ve had the opportunity to work with you and I’m thrilled that you’re sharing that with your students both in teaching them but as you said as an example,  you are the role model and so I think that that is I’m sure something that they are going to carry with them as they leave Georgia Tech and go on to do great things. Is there anything else you wanted to add about your career journey before we transition to the next section?

HARRIS: yes, my very first mentor, who was my boss when I started at Georgia Tech, she taught me how to create a job. And since she taught me how to do that, I’ve actually created three jobs at Georgia Tech that did not exist before I created them.

She also showed me how to create value to give myself pay raises, to play by a different set of rules.

And that is the advice that I would give to anyone when they’re thinking about their career journey. Don’t limit yourself to the rules that are presented to you.  the fact that we were open to doing something that hadn’t been done before meant that my career path was able to take a different trajectory that I’m positive a lot of people who started with me could not take. 

ADAMS: one of the things I want to reinforce in what you said is the adding value part. So when you can show that you can add value and that you have added value, the career paths, the rules of promotion, the rules of salary, the rules of benefits, all of those things become much more flexible because people want to keep you.

Sometimes I think particularly early on in careers, people feel chafed by these boundaries and wish they were different. And it’s like, you know what? You can earn your way out of these boundaries. 

HARRIS: Yes. You created a value. I love the way you phrase that. is true. You can earn your way out of those boundaries. It is true. Yes.

ADAMS: Joy, what situation are we going to talk about today? I have thought about this one because there are really so many.

I have the honor of leading a nonprofit called the Council of Schools and Services for the Blind. I am the executive director. The council is the collection of schools and agencies. have anywhere from 50 to 70 members at any given time who serve children who are blind and low vision. And the purpose of the council is to provide resources to help our members expand their capacity we want to help them serve students better. And I am accountable to the board. So I always like to quantify or qualify. Sometimes people lead, you know, they start their own nonprofit and then they can lead it to their own discretion. But I am accountable to the board. Most recently, we had a board change. I now have a new board president every two years. I have a board president and my board president canceled our monthly meeting without telling me. And also without, he didn’t tell me he was going to cancel it. And he emailed the board and did not copy me on the cancellation. He told me after he had canceled it, after he had emailed the board, so I didn’t even know what was said as to why. The reason that he canceled the board meeting was because he did not understand the financials about our most recent leadership institute that happened two months ago. 

Now, first, my blood still raises as I tell them. I’m working my way through it emotionally because this is a logical situation. I have to handle it logically. There are a couple of reasons why him canceling the board meeting is such a big deal. The main reason is I actually need the board meetings in order to do my job effectively.

So when he canceled the board meeting without checking in and without telling me, he limited the work that I can do for several months because we only meet once a month. So we haven’t met, you think about it, we meet on the first Thursday of each month. We hadn’t met since October. He canceled our November meeting. We’re not meeting until December. So that’s a three month period.

Where in theory I could just do my work, sure, but the way that the organization runs, my board likes to give feedback, they like to stay in the loop, it really is a partnership between me and the board. So he put me in a situation to either do no work at all, which I get paid every month, I feel a fiduciary responsibility to this nonprofit organization to… do the job for which I am compensated for and to do it in the excellence of my ability. So either don’t do work, which for me is not an option, or to work without the partnership of the board. And if you think about a three month period, that’s a quarter of the year to work without the partnership of the board. All because he decided to, he unilaterally decided to cancel a meeting without my knowledge and without. So this is,

This is how I handled the situation. After, so the first thing that I did was walk away from my laptop so that I didn’t respond in frustration. I didn’t want to respond. I did not want to respond emotionally when he sent me an email saying, canceled the board meeting because I didn’t understand the numbers. It’s okay. Also, I want to back it up that I did meet with him the week prior to the board meeting to explain the numbers to him.

So this added to my frustration. So I walked away and I just gave some time.

Okay, and by the time I mean a few hours. And then I crafted a response. I sent him an email and the email in the email I said, what did I do to make you not trust me? And what can I do moving forward to regain your trust so that moving forward we’re working in partnership regarding our board meetings.

And then that’s how I started. That was the first, what do I do? Do not trust me. Okay. And then in the email after that first line, I explained to him, when you canceled the board meeting, you limited my ability to effectively do my job in excellence. You limited my ability to serve the organization well.

And therefore I must have done something like there has been a breakdown either in communication or in the workflow that has caused you to cancel the board meeting without telling me. I also explained to him there were several other options beyond canceling the meeting. For example, we could have tabled the financial discussion instead of talking about that during the board. We could have tabled that discussion  and spoken and talked about the other five agenda items that I needed the board’s input on during the meeting. And then I ended again with, so basically I’m like, I must have done something to make you not trust me because you canceled the meeting without asking me when there were all of these other options that we could have done. You also limited my ability to do my job well. So let’s have a meeting to discuss what I can do differently in the future to build and regain this trust so that you don’t feel the need to cancel a board meeting in the future moving forward without consulting with me first. 

Now, of course, when I phrased it that way, his immediate response was, no, no, no, no, no, no. It wasn’t that I don’t trust you. You do a great job.

It’s just that I didn’t understand and I didn’t feel comfortable meeting with the board. you know, and he, you know, his, his response was, you know, it was, it was very apologetic and I didn’t cancel the board meeting lightly and you know, all of the, all of these things. But I think it helped him to understand the position that he put me in. And, and I don’t, I don’t think that he recognized the position that he put me in. I scheduled that meeting. and so as a, as a follow-up.

I sent him another email actually just on Monday that said, the board meeting is two weeks away. Please tell me which option you would prefer. And I gave him three options. know, the first option I met with our finance person, I reconciled the numbers you and I can talk. Second option, you and I can meet with the finance person and discuss the reconciliation. could talk. Third option, I can move this off of the board meeting agenda and we can talk about everything else in December. He emailed me back option one.

So he and I are meeting tomorrow, everything is fine. Okay, so I feel like that our communication chain is back on track. Of course, you know, we’ll see if he ever does this in the future. In the best case scenario, he will not do this in the future. but I feel like our relationship was kept intact and he recognized the awkward position that he put me in, the impact that it has on my work. And I am hoping that we won’t have this issue in the future.

But I do feel, and you know, was, thank you for being proactive. I really appreciate you. And so I feel like the situation worked itself out in me responding to it that way. 

ADAMS: Yeah, no, this is a great situation and there’s lots of stuff we can dive into. Maybe I’ll start at the very beginning. I love what you said about, your immediate reaction was, peak frustration, peak anger, and you decided I need to step away. And I think that is really important that people understand that peak frustration, peak emotions is not the time to communicate with people. I will tell you, I have also, I have written scathing emails to people, but not sent them, just like, I need to get it out. I want to just mention that because we know that, self-regulation and really being able to do that, it is a skill. It’s an important emotional intelligence skill. And it comes with practice and experience and just being able to recognize, you know, whatever your signals are, either you can feel it in your body or like in my case, I can see it on the page because it’s way longer than I normally would,  whatever the signals, if you can be in tune to those signals that you are in peak emotion and probably nothing good is going to come out of trying to interact with somebody during that time, if you can just pause.

That sets you up for success. So that’s the first thing that I wanted to just reinforce that because I think that’s really important. 

And then I love the way that you phrased your message back to him, which was really to kind of to take some accountability yourself. So like, must have done something here. 

HARRIS: Yes. 

ADAMS: That, you know, and even if you don’t necessarily feel like you had you had done anything, I think it’s a very, It’s an important communication, strategy to say, this didn’t go the way that I would have liked. I want to understand what I can do to make it go in a way that would be better for me. And can we have a conversation about that? I think that is really important. And another thing that takes some skill and some savvy, because many of us would, make it all about themselves in the opposite effect. You you did me wrong. Why’d you do this? This hurts me, 

HARRIS: Like seven years, I have been leading this organization for seven years and four presidents and never has anybody done this. Yes, Like it’s not me, it’s you.

ADAMS:  Yeah. So if you’re thinking that. Yes. You have a sophisticated communication strategy, which is to say, to start off being open to the idea that aybe there was a breakdown on my part. Would you be willing to talk, about that with me? 

I think the other thing that I really like about this situation that you mentioned is that, this person is relatively new. And so people need to understand that when you get a new boss or a new peer or a new colleague, that there is often a need to negotiate communication and interactions. And so in this case, you all started working together and there are probably other things where everything was smooth and everything was fine. But in this case, you all hadn’t, you hadn’t had the conversation in advance and probably, you know, as you said, you’ve had past presidents and the thought never even crossed your mind that the new president would cancel the meeting without consulting you. And so I do think that, you know, people need to understand that new relationships require putting new norms together. So you got this clash, and you can’t always in advance know what things are going to happen and have that conversation in advance. But it sounds like you were able to absorb this clash and then still have a productive conversation and kind of negotiate a new set of norms. So I think he’s pretty clear now that like you want to be consulted before board meetings are at least unilaterally canceled, right? Like we can change the agenda, we can, but you need this meeting in order for you to do your work. And that’s, and you know, he may not have understood that. And so you had to negotiate that. 

HARRIS: Yes. That part. That’s the other piece that I had to take myself out of. I did not want to assume that as the new board president that he really understood the value and the impact of like how much those meetings actually need to happen for me to do my work. That’s the other thing. Because when you, don’t, he wouldn’t necessarily know. I did not want to assume that he understood. And you’re right, when a person is new to a position, we can’t assume that they really do understand the gravity of all of their actions. 

ADAMS: Yep. Yeah. Absolutely. And then the other thing I really liked is part of your communication strategy, which is the idea of giving your audience options. So, you know, we could do this, we could do this, we could do this. And I think that is a really effective communication strategy too, because it helps people to understand. Well, one, people like to be able to choose things. So that puts them at a more kind of relaxed and responsiveposition just in general. It’s like, okay, I have some power in this situation. I like the idea of being able to choose. It also helps just sort of expand the solution space. So sometimes, you know, if you only give one option, like, well, I don’t like that option. And if they don’t have any other ideas, then they feel either stuck doing that option and will do it reluctantly and maybe, you know, with resistance, or they’ll say, they’ll say no, and then and then you’re stuck. When you give people options, not onlycan they pick among the options, but it also kind of gives people the creative freedom to think, well, maybe I actually want like a 1B. Like she gave me one, two, three, but let’s see if 1B could work. Do you know what I mean? Let’s see if there’s something different, but kind of in this space. And so yeah, do think that’s another really effective communication tactic that you talked about and something that I would suggest others kind of consider when they’re wanting to suggest things to give people options. Now make sure those options are actually viable things that you would be willing to do if somebody chose it, right? You don’t want to like just fake options in the of being… 

HARRIS: I hope you don’t choose option…

 Yeah, exactly. I don’t really want you to choose. No, don’t do that. But as I said, unlocks some creativity and people like the idea of being able to make choice.

So that’s very helpful. So, well, I hope things work out. So I know this is a fresh one. You brought us one that’s like still in progress. So I suspect that he understands now and will absolutely consult with you in the future because he cares about this organization as much as you do. You don’t become the president of the board of something because…

I’m on a lot of boards and like the higher up you go the more work it is you’re volunteering, right? So he cares about this organization too and once wants it to succeed so I’m confident that it will that it will work out so And what about it from your side any key takeaways that you that you’ve had?

HARRIS: yes. Well, one, I mentioned about not assuming that people do understand the impact of their decision. It’s not making those assumptions. But another takeaway, I appreciate that he did bring to me the discrepancy in the numbers. I don’t like the way he brought it to me through canceling the meeting, but he did bring to me that my numbers did not align with our accountants numbers. And I actually should have aligned with her before presenting those numbers or discussing those numbers with him and the board. And so that was a learning for me whenever there are details that are involving other people.

Where it’s multiple of us involved, I’ll make sure to align that all of us are aligned prior to discussing any output or any outcomes with any other stakeholders. And so I do appreciate that he brought that to me. And the other thing is, you know, after meeting with her and after understanding everything, our next, our December board meeting is going to be better. But he also had an issue that is going to make the organization better moving forward, we actually spent too much money. So again, the overall takeaway is even if you don’t like the way in which the information is brought to you, still be open to learning from the information that is brought.

ADAMS: And it sounds like you two will also have a great working relationship moving forward. that’s also what we need as we build our careers. We need to continue to find ways to interact and work with and grow with people who may or may not see things our way all the time

HARRIS: I do want to add one more thing before we transition.

I want just everybody listening to recognize the place that I had to start from was I know that he cares about the organization. I know that he wants to get this right. I know that he wants to do the right thing. And beginning from a place of He is a human being, first of all, but he also cares about the organization. And And that means so much in that I wanted to make sure that at the end of the conflict, we still had a great relationship. And I think that just remembering that as we navigate different critical conversations. If we lead with a spirit of, I want to make sure that after this conversation is had, we don’t hate each other. That we still have a great relationship. it changes how you would approach a person.

ADAMS: Joy, what advice would you give engineers who want to move into leadership roles but aren’t sure where to start?

First piece of advice, do well what’s right in front of you. Add value where you are, bloom where you are planted. All of the euphemisms that you have heard about doing your job well, do that. I have seen people make the mistake of not doing their current job well because they’re looking ahead to the job that they want. But the job that you want won’t come to you if you are not doing your best in your current role.

And so just seeking to add value where you are is what actually expands your circle of influence and your impact. I’ve even been guilty of it myself and I’ve had to walk it back. Like, no Joy, do what’s right in front of you and do what’s in front of you well. And then more is going to come, that growth and that expansion. 

Another thing that I do, as an engineer, I actually read Harvard Business Review. I have a personal subscription because Harvard Business Review has a lot of great articles about leadership, about navigating crucial conversations, about interacting with people in a business environment. As engineers, we can be sometimes siloed, sometimes antisocial…

It doesn’t have to be Harvard Business Review, but some source that allows you to think differently. That’s what I’m advocating. For me, the Harvard Business Review allows me to think differently about technical problems, about technical products because I’m thinking about it from a leadership lens or thinking about it from a corporate lens. And of course there will be articles on how is AI impacting our present age. But it definitely brings in a different thought process and a different skillset that it just helps me to be better in my everyday job in working in what’s right in front of me. So that’s the next thing that I would recommend. And I always like to do things in threes because threes are fun. Do it.

My last piece of advice is…

I know you’ve heard it before, but it really does work. 

Be your authentic self.

You can’t be the best somebody else. You just can’t. So for example, I am really good at some things and I’m not really good at other things. I am not excellent at the nuts and bolts details of planning an event.

So what I do is surround myself with people who have that gift.

And not only that gift, but that passion and that love. And together we do something that’s dynamic and awesome. So I stay in my lane because I know where my passion is, but I also know where my gifts lie.

Have the self-awareness to know that’s not me, but this is me.

and we’ll work together and do something amazing and magical together.

ADAMS: So thank you so much, Joy, for sharing your insights with us.

HARRIS: Angelique, thank you so much for inviting me.