MEL #009 | Leadership in High-Stakes Engineering Projects with Alan Grissom

GRISSOM: For us, it’s how can we save some steps the next time we do it? In whatever development that is. So whether it’s a checklist or a due diligence process or comparing notes from the last project of what did not work well, or Why did they change it in the field? trying to learn from mistakes, learn from things that have changed throughout the process and making it better for the next time.

ADAMS: In this episode, I speak with Alan Grissom, Civil Division Leader at Cannon & Cannon. Alan shares his journey into engineering, discussing how he chose civil for its people-oriented nature and connection to universal basic needs like access to water. Alan reflects on his career growth, the importance of education, and the skills necessary for effective communication in client-facing roles. In our leadership segment, we discuss Alan’s experience leading large, high-profile projects and how they are different from smaller ones.

He talks about how even though he enjoyed the pressure of working on high-profile projects, not everyone on the team does. He needed to learn and accommodate the work styles of the team to ensure that everyone thrives. He also discusses the importance of systematized learning, reflecting on what worked well and what didn’t during a project. So templates and checklists can be created and updated to leverage takeaways at the next opportunity. Alan concluded with his advice on developing essential leadership skills for engineers including emotional intelligence and focusing on your strengths. Without further delay, here is my conversation with Alan Grissom.

Hi, Alan, welcome to Mastering Engineering Leadership.

GRISSOM: Hello, it’s great to be here.

Can you start out by telling us how you got into engineering as a career path?

GRISSOM: Yeah, absolutely. So for me, it started in high school, actually, and just being intrigued with mathematics and seeing that I was kind of, I guess, was gifted a little bit in that field and tried to just look and what possible ways could I take this further? And I really just stumbled upon it. Didn’t really know what engineering was Just knew that it was heavy in math. And so I said, I’m gonna do that. I’m just gonna try it out and got accepted into engineering school and kind of started my pathway in freshman year at UT.

ADAMS: Same here, by the way, that’s exactly how I got into engineering, no idea what it was until far along. So I’m gonna ask this second question and then I’m gonna tell you my answer. I’m curious if it’s also gonna be the same. So how did you pick civil engineering? 

GRISSOM: Yeah, so civil engineering, the very first thing they do in class is really they go through all of them. And what intrigued me most about civil is what I saw is it somewhat deals with people the most.

And it is a type of engineering. You will always need water. You will always need to use the restroom. You will want to be able to move around, whether that’s through roads, some type of transportation. I saw it very similar. If I was ever to get into the medical field, I was going to deliver babies because you’re always going to have to have babies are always coming. So that’s kind of how I pick civil engineering.

ADAMS: Well, that’s great. That’s a great answer. So deals with people and you’re always going to need it. So I’ll tell you my answer just because it so we do different this one. So at the time, U.S. News and World Report had the rankings of salaries, engineering salaries. And since I didn’t know what it was anyway, it didn’t really matter. And chemical was at the top at that the year that I went into school. So I picked chemical for that reason. So I think your reasons are a little bit more I feel a little bit more tangible and even closer to your own personal interests. And I love that you said it deals with people because one of my missions is to dispel the myth that engineers don’t like people, don’t like to talk to people, et cetera. And here you’re saying you pick something partially because it deals with people.

Have you found that to be the case? Are you interacting with people as much as you thought you would be in as a civil engineer?

GRISSOM: Yeah, well in my role specifically in how I’ve seen my career trajectory and movement is that based on I guess some of the God-given gifts of you know talking and I am not your typical behind the desk more introverted I don’t fit that quote stereotype, I guess. I am very extroverted. I walk around the office all the time. I go to people’s offices. I don’t mind to be on the stage. based on that kind of how I work, how I am, how I was made, I guess, my personality, it has allowed me to be more client facing, which I, and using some of my.  You know, more personal skills to, communicate, has been a very beneficial in the development of my, of my career. 

ADAMS: And so part of it, you said you feel like was innate in you, the, being extroverted, liking to talk to people, but part of it, I’m sure are skills that you have honed over time.

Cause when you talk to clients, it’s more than just, you know, chit chatting. There’s some real strategies and really important professionalism and topics and how you present yourself when you’re representing the company to clients. So can you talk a little, just a little bit more about how you developed those skills? 

GRISSOM: Yeah. I have developed, I guess, just being able to listen. The whole thing you hear is, I heard, guess, as a child is, how about you, you were given two ears and one mouth. So maybe listen a little bit more, hear from people, and then you start learning and developing what their actual needs are, what they would like, what they want to pursue, and how can you come alongside them to kind of check that box for them. In our jobs, we…

We want to meet what we’re asked to do or what a client or developer, whatever it may be, wants to achieve. So we need to hear exactly what their goals are. So developing listening skills is really key.

ADAMS: Can you talk a little bit about how you developed them? Did you like take classes on active listening? Cause there’s plenty, there’s, you know, there’s stuff out there about that. Or did you just practice and get, maybe get feedback from your supervisor or from a mentor? Is there, is there anything else apart from just sort of recognizing that it was important

GRISSOM: Recognizing is key. I agree with that. And then also seeing it modeled. Of the, I guess, supervisors and mentors that I’ve had through the years, I’ve just kind of looked and seen how they communicate, what is successful, what works, what doesn’t. And, you know, I’ve fallen up the stairs a lot of times, you know, making mistakes and learning from them, knowing I should have

I should have probably said that differently or listened a little bit more because I would have gotten the answers out of it. It has been very helpful. 

ADAMS: So you recognize it was important and so you started to observe and see how it’s being modeled out in the real world. And I do think that is really an underestimated way to learn is through observation. And that’s been a big part of my own career trajectory is just when I’ve been fortunate enough to sit in the room, I make sure I pay attention to see what the top people are doing and how their body language, how they’re listening, how they’re asking questions, how they’re answering questions. All of those things are excellent ways to learn 

GRISSOM: And one other that I would point out that’s helped me too is I do not have a problem giving my opinion.

So if I’m in a meeting and asked a question or in a group setting, I don’t mind speaking up, but at least giving some time, give a pause to allow others before I speak. It’s been very key to be able to hear and listen to everyone and then I can give my opinion and I might be able to change my opinion based on how I’m learning from others around me. So taking time to pause before I just, easily I could just give my opinion and go away.

But truly learning from others in the room of what’s going on has been helpful. 

ADAMS: You’ve said, look, I’m outgoing, I’m an extrovert. And so from your side, of the listening and interacting in meetings is maybe to pause before you throw out your thoughts. And I would say to the other folks who maybe are more introverted and who might be reluctant to say things,

To those people, I suggest that you consider planning in advance some things that you might, some questions you might want to ask or some comments that you might want to throw in because as we, as we are, when we were more junior, we were observing what the top leaders were doing. So too they are observing us. And so if you’re invited to sit at the table, unless you’ve been specifically told you’re just here to observe, you’re not there to just sit there with your mouth closed. Your perspectives are important, and so it’s really important to get your thoughts and ideas out there. And it can be challenging for both sides to do that. And so I just like to tell people, maybe be a little bit more prepared to engage, because you are being observed for your level of interaction as well. And you want to be seen as someone who is contributing either through questions, which are a great way to contribute, or through putting your ideas out there. So I just really love what you said about, in your case, sometimes in order to maybe give some of the best comments, it requires you to give a pause so that you can hear from others. Yeah, go ahead, Alan

GRISSOM:  Yeah, I was just going to say that you always hear there’s not a stupid answer or question, I guess, and not a stupid question or a comment, which I disagree. There’s a lot of stupid ones and I say them all the time. But if I hit one comment or question that’s out of the park and it’s a home run out of 10, it’s worth it. So just keep them coming. Yes, that’s great. But just know that it takes that effort to ask and to provide feedback in a setting. Because it just takes one small spark, and I’ve seen it happen before, in design. Just having a round table with people and nothing’s thought of. And then someone throws a little bitty grenade of an idea and it blows up to be exactly what it needs to be. 

ADAMS: So continuing on with your career trajectory, you opted to get a master’s degree. So can you talk a little bit about your decision to go on to graduate school? Yeah, my decision to go to graduate school was 100 % based on the economic climate. So I graduated in 2009 with my bachelor’s in civil from UT. And there’s just a huge need for post graduate degrees, a master’s degree. And they were providing some great opportunities. And it was very challenging to get a job just due to what happened in 2008 and moving things. And it’s just, could not, you couldn’t really find anything. There was a couple of little opportunities, but they were very limited and really not in, what I wanted to do. So I decided I’m not going to change anything that I was doing. And I probably went too crazy and took, I think I averaged about 19 hours of grad school hours or three semesters in a row and graduated in a year with my master’s. But I didn’t change what I was doing. I just said, I’m going to act like I am.

a undergraduate student in graduate school take the same amount of hours I’ve been taking and just plow through this. And it worked out. I’m glad I didn’t, just like I just went to undergrad for five years. 

ADAMS: Yeah. Wow. That’s great that you had that diligence and that mindset to just plow through it.I’m assuming that the job market was better after you, a year later, after you finished grad school, both because now you had a master’s, but also the timing. know that the 2008 financial crisis was terrible. 

GRISSOM: So, yeah. So it actually helped me just have a little bit more exposure, you know, in relationships with some stuff I was, I was doing. was actually as a sub consultant for the current company I work for, Cannon and Cannon, doing traffic counts.

because I got a master’s in transportation engineering with an emphasis in engineering management. And with that, I was helping just, hey, if you need someone to go out and just get some counts to be able to do traffic studies and developing those relational skills with them and providing, I guess I was a good counter and coordinated well. then, which now I’m working up to where I lead our entire civil division here at Cannon and Cannon.

It worked out well, for, for where I was, and, and I don’t know if that would have necessarily happened if I took a, a different job and did not go directly and get my masters. 

ADAMS: So you’ve been with Cannon and Cannon for a little over 16 years. you’ve rose through the, through the ranks over that time. Can you just talk a little bit about your career trajectory?

GRISSOM: I started out kind of part-time as an opportunity. Sometimes they don’t know, do I want to hire someone full-time? Do we have the workload? That’s a big thing we think of. Do we have the workload to keep this person busy? So I started part-time and then within six months, they offered me a full-time job because I started in the transportation team, helping do some traffic impact studies, traffic counts, some traffic control plans but there rose a need in the development team and what we called back then community development, which is civil site, private development, civil engineering. And we, they saw a dual role. Maybe we can keep someone busy helping out with some CAD and some layout and design in that area. 

And then just moving on, about a year later, I went 100 % into community development and started,working with developers, based on the skills that I have and be able to communicate, saw that I could be a decent project manager and communicate with clients and then eventually sell work. And then as it is now, I primarily talk with clients. My phone is, I’m on the phone probably 75 % of the day, it seems. But the key thing is you have to develop your engineering skills to be able to speak well to clients. I know enough to be dangerous, it seems as well as to tell people. I understand all the engineering concepts. I don’t know if I would really want to design everything or engineer everything, but everyone has their role. And for me to be able to be a relationships and to help assist bring in work and to grow our team and to get the jobs that we want to get that are interesting and fun to work on, kind of the outlier projects. We get a lot of the tough ones because we’re known that we can complete them and get them done and do them well. That’s exciting. So that’s a little bit of my career progression, guess, at Cannon and Cannon.

ADAMS: And you used a term that I want to dive into a little bit because it’s not something, again, I want to break stereotypes here. It’s not something you often hear about engineers, but you said sell work. So use the word selling and sales. If you could talk a little bit more about what that means in the context of your work and talk a little bit about some of the skills that you have to use to be successful in that. 

GRISSOM: A lot of what I do,is I take it through relationships that I’ve built or through the name that Cannon and Cannon has or through repeat clients, whatever it may be. We get a lot of people interested in doing development or they have a wish list or they have something they’d really like to do. you know, I take, as you said, you know, it eventually gets to bringing in work for us, but how do we take what they would like to do, what they would like to develop, see if it’s feasible, so there’s a due diligence stage where you’re still communicating. You’re not even giving necessarily any engineering deliverables, what I’ll call construction plans or calculations, anything like that. But you’re kinda just going through this stage that we call feasibility, due diligence, entitlements. There’s a couple different words for it. But we just kind of make sure we’re checking the boxes that they can do what they would like to do, and it’s probably the most biggest bang for their buck.

As because as engineers, we want to make sure we’re stuff very efficient and very effective for the client and for the community. with that, it then easily goes into providing a service, which that service can be at times that due diligence and that consulting. We are consulting engineers to then provide full deliverables of plans and how to get things through different municipalities and utilities to approve these plans. So that’s a little bit of how the work that we do with private developers a lot of times, you touch every part of civil engineering.

You have roads, have stormwater, you have utilities, you have lighting, you have site electrical, you have to power those lights. You name it, we touch a little bit of every field. So in our team, in the civil division, we reach out to all the other teams a lot more than others do, back to us. So you have to know a little bit about everything to communicate effectively to your clients and also make sure you’re not forgetting anything that’s going to be very beneficial for them. And that’s why they come back. That’s why they give you a call the next time.

ADAMS: All right, Alan, what leadership situation are we talking about today? 

GRISSOM: You know, I think the one that really highlights part of my career and then more so even the development of others around me is a specific project that came back in 2019 into 20 and actually just kind of wrapped up just probably about a couple months ago officially. It’s been on the been on the streets for a while, but there was a big development of here in East Tennessee for an Amazon fulfillment center there next to McGee Tyson Airport. Very large, very large project.

ADAMS: Yes. so tell us a little bit about, as you said, you mentioned sort of development of others and some of your leadership skills. And you’re right, by the way, anybody who’s local, who’s hearing this knows all about this particular project.

GRISSOM: Yeah. So a little bit about it was, you know, this project had a significant amount of entitlements. As you’re talking about a 100 acre site a building that is around 2.9 million square feet which is It’s it I can it’s about an 11 acre footprint. It’s ginormous and a lot of name recognition So you’ve got NDAs you got to be quiet. You got to coordinate well but the main part of it is you have a traffic component You know, well, let’s start at the beginning. You have a public component people that either want this or don’t want this.

You have a traffic component that we provide a service for. You have a site development component. You have geotechnical. You have drainage. You have a lighting component. And even most importantly, you have a utility component through electricity, through water, and through fire, as well as sewer. So it was a massive project to coordinate I was the point person to get all those pieces within our company aligned to then have one point of contact Yes with our client but also with our deliverables and our submittals and our coordination with The Amazon team and the developers for this project. So what made it really neat was first, I guess being the point person but also being able to see all the different layers of this project and to bring them all to the table and see which ones were the critical path, which ones were the most important, and they changed, it seemed, every hour. What was most important? And I didn’t mention there was a large component that we provided as well, which was surveying. You have to have really good data. So topography and boundary, survey was key too, to know where to put everything.

ADAMS: You know, you mentioned before, so part of this was what you do all the time every day, right? Coordinating these internal pieces. You’ve mentioned that that’s part of the work. But then there’s this additional element to it around the size and scope, around the public nature of it that makes it bigger, makes it more stressful, I’m guessing, I don’t know, but makes it have more impact. And so I’m just curious how you, how did you see it as the difference between your day-to-day in say a smaller project that maybe has less high profile versus this particular project? Were there specific behaviors that you had to do differently?

GRISSOM: Well, above all, the reason why it was successful is because the team that we had was successful. The people made it on our team were really, really good at what they do. Even though certain people may have got highlighted, that’s this person from this company, they did really well, or this was great. But it’s all about the team, first of all. We have a tremendous team that worked on it.

It was stressful at times. But the wonderful thing about it going through this process and learning and seeing all the moving parts made the next one easier. It made all the smaller projects way more manageable and you can get through this. Which then led to we did two other Amazon facilities here in East Tennessee. We have the one at which is the old Knoxville Center Mall 

there in East Knoxville. We did that one a year or two later. We’re kind of working on those side by side, but it just made the next one more manageable by going through the large scale of the first one and seeing what you’re getting into. Like, I can do this. We have the capabilities. can pursue. There’s a light at the end of the tunnel, I guess. But yeah, you used the right word. It was stressful, but having the right people around you and to learn how to use resources well, call on people to, at times, you’re continually learning on the job and that was one that was learning every second.

ADAMS: Did you like to be in that kind of environment where it’s like continuously learning, coming up a steep learning curve, or do you prefer to kind of be in a situation where you have a higher understanding of what the outcomes are going to be? 

GRISSOM: I personally work much better under pressure. 

ADAMS: Me too. 

GRISSOM: so I’m more effective. That’s why I will set deadlines for myself.

I know I may not need to do something. I’ll manage my time by putting things on my own calendar for me to get accomplished and do. So instead of thinking something for a week, I’ll just put something on my calendar the next day for an hour later, and then I’ll know, I’ve got to do this within this hour and get it completed. Because I know I work better in that scenario instead of having a checklist just one after the next. But yes, II have found that I excel more when I am completely busy.

ADAMS: So we understand that you like being busy, you like being under pressure, but I imagine that not everyone in the team is the same way. And so I’m curious if you found that you had to employ any different leadership or management communication tactics in this project that was higher stress for the people that were working with you? If you found yourself or other, maybe other leaders in the organization, if you found them doing anything differently around communication, around helping the team members manage their own stress levels, things like that, when you have a big high-profile project like this? 

GRISSOM: Yes, I had to keep a very wide timeline, a schedule to the project, and give several people a larger heads up than I need. Someone can come into my office at any time and interrupt me while I’m typing something and working on something and I will answer them and not budge and still keep moving. If you go into someone’s office and you interrupt them sometimes, there are certain personalities, you’ve just messed them up for a couple hours by asking them a question. So how do you schedule time with someone, send them a meeting invite instead of going to their office? You start learning who you’re working with and to schedule ahead of time. And really it comes down to managing a project well, time management, strategic thinking of planning out certain milestones and deliverables. So it’s not, next week we have to get this out the door by Friday. It’s, hey, in two and a half weeks we have to get this out the door. This is what we’re doing next week to prepare for the next week and a half after that.

ADAMS: Absolutely. good project planning is critically important. And I really like what else you were saying there about as a leader, you also need to understand the people that you’re working with and understand how they work and how they thrive and be willing to make accommodations for some of those things, particularly when you’ve got tight timelines and stressful projects.

It can make all the difference in the world if you just, as you say, if you’re willing to just schedule the meeting to give them a heads up versus just barging in their door, if you understand that that is something that they need in order to work successfully and get be the best that they can be. So I really appreciate you mentioning that. I do think that lots of times folks don’t really take the…

the time or you maybe don’t have the awareness that that can be the case. And of course, you can’t accommodate 100 % of the people 100 % of the time. But recognizing that people have different work styles and to the extent that you can try to accommodate those, I think can really make a huge difference. So the first project was successful and you won additional business with Amazon. I’m curious if there were any takeaways from that first one, either lessons learned or best practices that you developed that you continue to bring forward either, either with, with your other Amazon or just other big high profile projects that you’ve worked on. 

GRISSOM: Yeah. I mean, we created basically a template from it on large projects, to that scale. that’s, mean, we’ve had a couple that were larger or, you know, around the same size and it’s just become easier because we’ve gone through before we’ve created a template. we know what we’re getting into.

And it’s also an opportunity to, during those years in 19 to even kind of 22, 23, there was a high end of warehousing, kind of the distribution was really booming in that time. And it was an opportunity for us to show that we’re capable in producing in that type of use of land development.

ADAMS: So this template that you all have built, I guess in my mind, it’s sort of like systematized learning, right? You’ve gone through this whole process and you may have been doing it on the fly or immediately thereafter, but you’re saying, look, we’re learning how to do things a new way or for a new context, and we want to make sure we can do it as well or better the next time around. And so you put this template together. Is that just how you all work at Cannon Cannon or was it a special situation?

GRISSOM:  Well, for us, it’s how can we make it, how can we save some steps the next time we do it? In whatever development that is. So whether it’s a checklist or a due diligence process or comparing notes from the last project of what was what was wrong, what did not work well, or what came up on the as-built. An as-built is something that’s produced at the end of a construction to certify that it was constructed correctly. this wasn’t constructed correctly. Why did they change it in the field? They didn’t really ask me. So maybe I need to consider that in the future. I’ve always said, know, engineers, we’re pretty good. We need to get our eyes more on the field and see what’s going on. I’m going to listen to a contractor who’s worked out in the field for 20 or 30 years much more than myself. We have a lot to learn from them. So it’s a working relationship as something’s getting developed and then constructed. But as you said, with trying to learn from mistakes, learn from things that have changed throughout the process and making it better for the next time.

ADAMS: All right, Alan, as we wrap up, what advice would you give to engineers who want to move into leadership roles? 

GRISSOM: Yeah. So for I guess in leadership roles, you would want to continue to develop leadership skills. And I guess what are some good leadership skills? I would put it into kind of three categories. I think you should focus on learning people, I guess people management. I think I spoke to that earlier of being understanding and listening, developing listening skills is key.

Taking a pause to hear people. Understanding team dynamics is key. That everyone’s not like Alan. Not everyone is. You know, understanding how to deal with conflict resolution. We respond the way that we would want to be treated. And sometimes that’s not always the best way for everyone. And then also for this item of learning people is delegate effectively. And that will also help inspire trust in others.

ADAMS: Yeah, I love what you said, particularly there in the end about delegating will help inspire trust. think new leaders really get this wrong. They think that, if I delegate, I’m just putting the burden on other people and they’re not going to like it. They’re going to push back, et cetera. But my experience has been, and I think there’s plenty of studies out there that ffective delegating, actually, people like that. They like the opportunity to try new things, to grow, to do more. And I have always had people tell me, thank you for trusting me with this, whatever it was that I just delegated. OK, anything else you’d like to add on the advice?

GRISSOM: I think developing strategic thinking, you know, focus on some, you know, some type of long-term planning and how to prioritize that. And then also aligning your technical goals with your business objectives.

Make sure that we’re somewhat well-rounded, which I could then also make an argument on the other side later that I’ll finish with. And then lastly, you know, in this part of developing what I’ll say leadership skills is practice emotional intelligence is key too. Understanding how to manage your emotions, you know, developing self-awareness and your interpersonal skills is key and how to communicate, I guess, effectively as well.

One thing I do want to highlight for a skill is really becoming expert in what you’re naturally gifted in and just excel in that way. We hear this, hey, let’s look at your weaknesses. How can we make those better? I turn that upside down. I’m like, no, let’s not worry about that because we are team approached. We win together. Let’s focus on our strengths and let’s just get even better at that where we become an absolute professional expert in this one area. And then let’s all win together.

ADAMS: That is great advice, Alan. Thank you again for sharing your insights with us. 

GRISSOM: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you.