MEL #019 | From Sandbox Curiosity to Strategic Leadership through Consistent Engagement with Kris Meyer

MEYER (00:00)
Earn the right to be heard.

Slowly keep showing up. You start to earn that respect by just being there. And eventually they’re going to want to listen. And when that opportunity is to listen,

You start sharing small nuggets and then hopefully those nuggets turn into bigger nuggets.

ADAMS (00:40)
In this episode, I speak with Kris Meyer, Assistant Branch Manager at Barnhart Crane and Rigging, focusing on market development for nuclear small modular reactors. Kris’s passion for how things work began in childhood from sandbox tunnels to rebuilding cars. After earning a civil engineering degree from the University of Tennessee, he began his career at a small firm where he developed a broad skill set. He later transitioned to Barnhart Crane and Rigging, eventually moving from business development into a management role

focused on technical and people leadership. Kris’s toughest leadership growth came when shifting from a customer-focused, people-pleasing role to management. He had to learn that not everyone would be happy with his decisions and that leadership required embracing discomfort, managing conflict, and prioritizing the big picture over individual satisfaction. Kris advises engineers to stay curious, embrace risk, and do what others won’t to increase value. He emphasizes the importance of intentional networking

showing up consistently, and earning the right to be heard by building credibility through action and presence over time. Without further delay, here is my conversation with Kris Meyer.

ADAMS (01:48)
Hi, Kris Welcome to Mastering Engineering Leadership.

MEYER (01:52)
Angelique, thank you so much for having me and thank you for what you’re doing with this podcast. It’s been neat to watch and listen to all the information that’s been shared throughout your network. So thank you for what you do.

ADAMS (02:02)
Thank you, I appreciate it and I’m thrilled to have you on. Can you start by telling us how you got into engineering as a career field?

MEYER (02:08)
Sure. Well, so I think, you know, for me, I look back and I think almost you’re born with it in a way. So I go back to even my childhood and I think, gosh, I was that kid that loved like how things worked or how things were built. And I just had this natural curiosity that I think was almost ingrained in me early on, because I go back and like we had a neighborhood sandbox that a bunch of the kids played in and we’re always building roads and tunnels and

you know, there’s kind of this magic formula about how much water do you put on sand before it collapses. And so I think we were always kind of just playing in that. And I think it built in to my interest in how things were built in like a kid with Legos, for example, you built what was on the instructions, but then also what can you build beyond the instructions? And so I was just always tinkering with stuff like.

I was definitely not one of those kids that liked to be indoors. Never a video game kid. I was always outside doing something. And again, so that kind of led me naturally into this interest in how do things again get built and how do they work? early on I got involved with stuff with motors, so ATVs and jeeps and an old boat. And I just really kind of found love with that kind of stuff.

As I got into high school, again, cars start coming into your world. And so I got an old vehicle and started working on that and kind of rebuilt that in my high school days. So any money that I earned was getting dumped into a car, probably a big waste now that I’m a mature adult. But back then it sounded like a great idea. But again, that was kind of my interest. I did the…

got into Legos, got into cars, really got into the outdoors. So that was a real big thing for me, which led me to a scouting program. And I think as we talk about leadership, I got exposed to that very early as a kid through the scouting program and kind of took that all the way through Eagle Scout status, but it did build into again how I am where I am today. So.

Naturally, I’m a very social person. love people. I love helping people. I love serving people. And so I’ve always been one of those that had lots of social interaction. And so when you think about an engineer, a lot of times that doesn’t necessarily fit the social interaction. But again, it goes back to my love for how things work and how things are built really did play into what ultimately was my career choice. So in the home life, my dad had a construction company.

So in high school era, I did work for him. So general construction and then also a lot of foundation work. And so when I say I worked for him, I say I slaved for him. So I was physically out there in the ditches helping do work. And one thing that I realized is I was pretty good at work. Physically, I’m a pretty big guy. And so it became almost like a challenge to me is how hard can I work?

And again, being around that construction industry, being around those construction guys, again, I just built an appreciation again for that industry. So as I started looking into college, I knew I wanted to go do something, but I wasn’t sure what. So I ultimately ended up going to Pellissippi, did two years as getting my core classes out of the way. It really was I was trying to figure out what am I going to do with my career path and really focus a lot on construction through some

connections of family friends, kind of got some mentoring. And one of those individuals had a engineering business here in town, sat down with him and just explained, you know, what was my interest, what was my career path looking like? And one of the things he said to me that really stuck out when I said I wanted to go pursue construction, he said, Kris, an engineer can always go back and do construction, but a construction manager can’t always go do engineering. And I thought a lot about that and said, okay, I do love construction.

But maybe this engineering path he’s talking about is really the way to go. So again, I kind of took that and used that as kind of my goal of saying, okay, I’m going to go try this engineering thing. So throughout that, I transferred over to UT and I will tell you, school was never really that hard for me, but I also realized I wasn’t trying very hard. When I transferred from Pellissippi to UT, I got a rude awakening of what core engineering classes actually looked like.

My first semester I’m going to UT, I think I had 17 core engineering classes all at once and I got my tush kicked just realizing that I had a long way to go and I had to hit the reset button. But ultimately I think that it was an awakening of saying, okay, Kris, you need to get serious about this career path. And ultimately went on to graduate UT civil engineering.

It took me five and a half years by the time I had life going in the background. So I ended up taking a semester off, met my wife through a ministry called Young Life. So I got married my junior year, ended up taking a semester off building a house throughout all that, and then finally ended up graduating. But again, I let life kind of happen in the background and don’t regret any of it. It was a really good path for me. So graduated civil engineering from UT.

went from there and interviewed with several companies and ultimately decided to stay in with a local company that was a small business. And yeah, I look back at the time and really it was more of a selfish request. I just built this house. I wanted to stay local. I didn’t want to drive to downtown Knoxville because the traffic was horrible at the time. So I opted to go to the smaller company. So I think I was employee number 14.

at Folger Macondo. So they were a civil engineering company. They really focused on land development and utility work. So with my interest in construction, I kind of fell into the land development side of the business and really just got to see from start to finish what that looks like. And the thing I do really treasure about how they modeled their business, being a small business, they exposed us

to all aspects of the business. So we were very much self-sufficient engineers. So we had to not only kind of start the project in survey CAD space, we take it all the way through design completion with calculations to the end user customer. So really treasure the fact that they didn’t stick us in the department and really focused on the big picture.

So I did my internship of the EI program through that, took my professional engineering license after year number four and a half, whenever we first could take it, and I failed it. And I say that, I was going in great confidence saying, I do this all the time, I know engineering. But again, I realized I knew what I knew and I didn’t know the bigger picture. And again, just like when I came to UT and got that gut check, my junior college, same thing, I took that engineering.

professional engineering license, got that gut check and said, okay, Kris, let’s get your game together. anyway, took it a second time, passed it with flying colors and ended up staying in civil engineering consulting world for nine years. Ended up leaving that career path in 2014 when some doors opened up at Barnhart Crane and Rigging. And with Barnhart Crane and Rigging, they are the largest

domestically owned rigging company in the US. Based out of Memphis, we say we like to move in and haul big things, lift big things. So I like to say we bring out the big boy toys. Everybody wants to come see what we do. So I came over here in 2014 really looking at more of a project management role.

the branch manager of the time said, we have a different thought for you. We’re looking at expanding our nuclear and our department of energy focus. And we think you have an engineering, the technical background and being willing to talk to people in that relational side of who you are. We might want to put you in more of a business development role in these technical accounts. So I thought about that, ended up accepting the job. And really from the first seven years of my career at Barnhart, spent

bouncing in and out of Department of Energy, commercial nuclear plants, really trying to sell what we do as Barnhart, moving big things, removing and replacing equipment to these very technical customers. And I look back and say, okay, all these experiences I’ve been through in the life that I’ve lived helped me not only understand the engineering side, but also the people side. So then did that for seven years and then in 2020,

timeframe, I switched from a business development role over to a management role. And I think that’s where I grew a lot. And as we talk is when you have that transitional shift, when you’re in business development, you’re very much focused on customer’s needs, what a customer is ultimately seeking for their solution. And when I moved over to our management, it’s more, okay, how do you paint the whole picture? Not just the customer, but the operational side of the business, the people side of your business.

and bring everything together because it all has to work as one unified program. So it was very eye-opening for me.

ADAMS (10:32)
as you’ve been talking, something that seems to be a common theme from my perspective is that there have been several instances where you have come against a place where you could have pivoted and or maybe even

stopped or given up maybe is another way to say that and you chose

I’m just curious what it is about you where you say, okay, you know what, it was tougher or maybe even different than I thought, but I’m going

to keep coming back to this industry, this field.

MEYER (11:04)
Yeah, great question. So I think, you know, there a lot of these experiences. mean, nowhere was I able to quit. You know, in high school, I played football and I was OK. I wasn’t great, but I kept showing up every day and kept playing.

I mentioned, I think I mentioned, I was pretty involved with Young Life Ministries in high school. And so I ultimately kept doing that as leadership into my college and even in my early career days. And one of the things we talk about is just keep showing up, keep showing up, keep showing up. And so I think ideas just ingrained in me of, failure is not an option. It may look different. But again, even if you fail here,

just redirect and keep on going. So I think that is more ingrained on how I’m wired of, you’re not gonna take no for an answer. You’re gonna keep trying and eventually you’re gonna get it.

ADAMS (11:51)
Yeah, I think that’s great perspective. I we’ve got a lot of younger folks, a lot of students who listen who I think struggle with that, who may be their very first instance of not getting things exactly how they had planned might actually be at the university. And so I think it’s great for us to give them examples of people who are very successful consistently find a way to either pivot or keep trying or find a way to be successful.

through any means necessary, essentially. I liked your journey because you have absolutely done that.

MEYER (12:25)
I was going to add to that, think everybody’s path can look a little different because I look at my peers and even though we have the same path, our twists and turns, how we got here or where we’re going look different. so don’t take that for granted.

ADAMS (12:38)
Absolutely. I love what you were saying about working in a small business because they didn’t have the benefit of really siloing people often to have it into being in their own niche. You really have to be somewhat of a jack of all trades when you’re in a small business. And I’m curious, how did you come up the learning curve for some of these other aspects of working in that business that maybe were beyond what you studied in school?

MEYER (13:00)
Yeah, so I think, again, being in a small business, you have to do what you have to do because there’s not a department that does that for you. And so I think my leadership at the time, they did a very good job of not doing it for us. They would say, OK, you got to go learn how to do this permit or you got to figure out this calc. We’re here to help you, but we don’t have time to do it for you. So go figure it out. And I do treasure that looking back of saying they gave me lots of exposure that I think had I gone a different route,

I may not have had that exposure and then it may not have gotten me to where I am today. looking back again, the small business for me personally was a very good choice as a career path out of college. Sometimes the big companies, the big shiny things look great, but again, you’re not gonna get the exposure you would maybe taking a little more risk at a smaller company.

ADAMS (13:45)
Agreed. And you also talked about, you know, you’ve really leveraged your interpersonal skills that maybe partially came natural to you. You said you were social. I’m curious if there was any actual learning or studying or anything that you had to do to even further develop them beyond what just came naturally to you.

MEYER (14:03)
I think so. think intention is part of what I had to learn. You’re not just talking to talk, especially when you get into engineering space, people can read through kind of the, what we call the BS in a way. And so you have to know what you’re talking about. And so my conversations now have a lot more intention and I had to kind of train myself to know who is my audience? What is that message I’m trying to convey? And how do I convey that?

Yes, I can talk very well to people and I love people, but I’m realizing I have to cater my conversation differently to different folks.

ADAMS (14:36)
Is there anything specific you would add to that in terms of how you might cater it to maybe somebody in DOE versus somebody out in the private sector or maybe the salesperson versus another business development person or a technical person? Are there any specifics that you could share with us?

MEYER (14:51)
I think for me it’s understanding where they’re coming from, what is their background, do they know. Let’s use a subject for example, if they know my subject very well, I don’t have to explain the high level. We can go straight into details. If I’m trying to explain what a nuclear plant does, some people can say, yeah, these things bounce around and they do this and they create a bunch of stuff.

Others, we have to say, okay, no, there’s these atoms and all this stuff. And I can’t even speak nuclear, but you know what mean? So I’m learning a lot too, by being around people that are way smarter than me or, I mean, that’s not the right word, not smarter, but their experiences are different than mine. So again, they cater to me, so I understand and I can cater to others so they understand.

ADAMS (15:34)
You mentioned that in some cases, you are the one who has less subject matter expertise in an area. And I think that’s really important for engineers to understand that they can often become in that role, even particularly for managers. I know that when I took on leadership roles,

The higher up I went in the organization, the less I understood the subject matter because the organization just got more broad. And so I’m curious just how you handle that when you have to come up a learning curve or when you are the one who has less subject matter expertise and need to position yourself a little bit, not as the expert, but maybe as either the person learning or maybe a person who’s there for a different reason. Maybe you’re there to talk about the business side of things or the customer side of things or something else.

can just talk a little bit about that mindset shift coming from engineer focus to focusing on other things.

MEYER (16:25)
Absolutely. And great questions. Remember, I came up, I was a civil engineer, I was a dirt guy. And then when came to Barnhart, they put me in the Department of Energy and a nuclear guy. And so definitely a different subject matter. And so really, you have to be comfortable being uncomfortable, honestly, and go in not…

like you know everything, be willing to ask questions and don’t feel like your question isn’t important. Because again, at some point, that expert had to ask the same question. And so I think that’s one of the things I had to learn. I don’t have to know everything. Even though we’re working in the nuclear environment, I don’t have to know how the nuclear plant works. At Barnhart, I want to know how big is it? Where does it need to go? Somebody else can know how it works. And so I think being comfortable.

and knowing what is your subject matter that you’re the expert of sharing that, but also be willing to ask those others. Really, that’s what a team is for.

ADAMS (17:30)
Okay, Kris, what leadership example are we talking about today?

MEYER (17:33)
So, you Angelique we talked earlier about kind of my transitions through all the different careers and going from a sales position or business development, really more into a management position. And just the struggle it was for me to make that transition from really being that people pleaser serving the customer to now stepping back into an engineer, or an engineer, to a management role where you’re having to look at the whole picture. I’m naturally…

one that wants to serve others, wants to be a people pleaser in how I function. And I realized in a management situation, that is not always the best characteristics on how to lead people. And so I think one of the things I had to learn very early on was basically that you’ve got a lot of different folks you’re working with, a of different demographics, a lot of different backgrounds, a lot of different education, and you need to come out with them the different approach.

the biggest lesson I would say is I don’t have to be everybody’s friend. conflict is not a bad thing. you know, sometimes healthy conflict is good. And I think as I, as I’ve had to try to lead people, I’ve realized it doesn’t always have to be the Kris Meyer way of how you get things done. And so trying to learn how to do that compromise. So as I step back as a manager now and I say, okay,

your role looks different, your path to get here looks different. That’s not a bad thing. How you go about it is not a bad thing. We may not agree, but again, if you’re getting to the same goal I am, that’s not a bad thing. And so I think that’s been the biggest thing is I’ve had to learn as a manager is, don’t always be a people pleaser. Hard conversations need to happen. And at the end of the day, again, conflict can be good. I’ve had to learn to say no.

One of things I’ve learned too is I would get frustrated with folks if things didn’t look the way I wanted them to look. And again, part of it is I got to open my eyes and say, it’s not just my way. So I think that’s the biggest thing that I look at as a leader of saying, step back and see the bigger picture, be willing to listen to others and know that it can be done a different way.

ADAMS (19:35)
Yeah, I think that’s such a great point. you really do hit on what I observe and the folks that I work with. A really tough challenge for leaders is this idea of, can’t always make you everybody happy. I can’t always make you happy. I have to look at the organization, what’s best for the organization, and take decisions based on that. And sometimes that leads people to

really struggle with how to actually implement or how to actually enforce maybe a decision that isn’t super popular? And so can you talk a little bit about how you actually go about either communicating with your team or implementing things that maybe not everybody is super happy with?

MEYER (20:18)
Yeah, so I think you hit on one key word there is a team. And that’s one thing we do here is we have what was called a leadership team. And so it’s a group of different managers. We all have different focuses, but so often we’re bouncing ideas off of each other. And again, of that group, we may not all agree. We all want the same common goal, but how we get there. And so I think you’re discussing what that is when we know there’s going to be conflict, when we know that, 80 % of our group may love this and 20 % may hate it. And we try to weigh those options.

and think, okay, how do we deliver this message for us received for the intention in which it was, you know, put together? So I don’t want that to all be on one person. So I think having that interaction and that collaboration is right word, is definitely how we would share that message when that conflict is going to be known.

ADAMS (21:02)
Yeah, I think that that makes sense to consult with others and really think through what’s most effective way to communicate this so that stakeholders understand how the decision was made, what the thought process was, and also maybe even recognition and empathy for not everybody might like it, but it’s still something that’s the best overall decision and then implementing it that way. And then I’m sure when you do that consultation together, then you also have

more than one person that’s constantly reinforcing it after the fact, right? You’ve got a whole team of people who are continuing to reinforce the decision and making sure it’s implemented smoothly. So that makes a lot of sense. I’m curious how you just personally came to grips with it in terms of, you said, you come from being a people pleaser and even in your previous roles, you really were advocating for the customer, focusing on the customer. So you could bring that back and now you’ve got multiple.

stakes and stakeholders and entities you’ve got to contend with, but you probably still want to have this positive outcome and having people feel positive about it. I’m curious just within your own mindset, were there things that you had to do or maybe even something you prepare for now if you know you’re going into a difficult conversation.

MEYER (22:15)
Yeah, so it’s been interesting and I think goes back to that team and we did we did an exercise here with a program called Initiative One and what it was kind of one of those personality profiles early on in that in that program. And I think one thing it did, it opened up my eyes to saying, hey, we’re all wired slightly different. My people pleaser is not a bad thing, but it’s got to be balanced with somebody that’s much more fact based. And so I think that’s what I’ve realized is I need that guy that’s not the people pleaser to help balance me out and he needs

me to balance him out. And it wasn’t until we kind of went through that and talked about how we compliment each other or how we can hurt each other, do we really kind of open our eyes to the team to say, okay, we’re pretty well rounded, but you don’t want to get skewed one way or the other too bad. So I think really for me, was that personal recognition of, there’s strengths and there’s weaknesses in the way that I’m wired.

And once I recognize and can control those, it’s much better to execute. So that’d be my short answer to that question.

ADAMS (23:15)
I love that answer and that’s actually something that I talk to my students a lot. We have a whole module on assessments and how to effectively use assessments. And I love what you’re saying because that was a very effective way to use it, which is to say, learn more about yourself, of course, but then also learn how others are and then how you can put those puzzle pieces together to bring something really strong as opposed to the wrong way, in my opinion, to use assessments, which is to.

is to sort of say, okay, I don’t want that type of person. I only want these type of people on my team or whatever. So rather than use it to exclude people or to sort of say, that’s why they’re weird or whatever, use it as a way to learn more about yourself, but also learn more about others. So I think that that’s great. And I’m glad to hear that that’s an experience you had and something that your teams are working with.

MEYER (24:03)
And I’ll expand on that too, because when you’re talking to a group of engineers, if we all thought like engineers, looked like engineers, we wouldn’t talk to anybody. We’d sit in cubicles and we’d do our calculations and we’d spit out our drawings. And so again, I think even in the engineering culture,

You know, we have to think outside of our engineer minds. So it really, it really was a good exercise. Because when I talk about that leadership team, we all are engineering backgrounds. We all come from different backgrounds, different experiences. we’re engineers that are wired differently.

ADAMS (24:44)
All right, Kris, what advice would you give to engineers who are interested in pursuing leadership roles?

MEYER (24:49)
Angelique, would say, advice, never be comfortable with where you’re at. Being content is kind of being stale. And so always look at what you’re doing now and say, where do you want to go from there? The other thing I would say is, you want to get in and be willing to do what others won’t. I went back to the small business model as you’re trying to look at different opportunities.

There’s going be doors that open that some may not want to go down in those doors could open up to bigger picture. And, but I say do stuff that others don’t want to do. You’re making, you’re, making yourself more valuable. you know, when, when you start looking at, like right now the doge, the efficiency thing is a big topic right now in our community. And, and if you make yourself to where you’re irreplaceable in what you do, you don’t have to worry about being replaced. so I think I say, do be willing to do what others won’t.

to increase your value. One of the things, going back to the small business, it was ran by a couple of engineers. And one of the things he said was, always do the best you can. And he coined the phrase, the ninja near. And when I say the ninja near, he talked about what a ninja does. A ninja perfects their craft. And that ninja near model, he basically says, we want you to be the best engineer you can ever be.

And then he told us engineers are like rock stars. Everybody wants to be like us. So it was kind of this deal thing, but, I think what stuck with me is he said, be the best engineer you can be. and coined that an engineer, philosophy. again, being the best. And the last thing I would say is being engaged. And so whether that’s engaged, at your workplace, in your community and organizations, no matter what you’re doing, if you’re a guy behind the desk, or if you’re somebody like me doing business development,

being engaged, sitting behind the desk, being a remote person. It’s just not a great way to develop your leadership skills. So I would say take advantage of the network. know, how Angelique and I met was through the eTech organization and it has opened so many doors for me by taking a risk and getting out there. Basically, I’ve got to focus in the small modular reactor world right now and I’m trying to figure out who’s in that world, where do I go from here?

and getting engaged has opened those doors. And then finally, I would say, earn the right to be heard. So we keep showing up. We talked about that early on of how do you relay your message? And I would say, keep showing up, keep sharing your message, but again, earn the right to be heard.

ADAMS (27:04)
When you say engage, what are some of the actual tactics that you would recommend we might consider?

MEYER (27:12)
Sure. I think, well, I think one is what is your, what’s your end goal? You know, is it to go meet a certain group of individuals? Is it trying to get into a certain industry? Is it trying to learn a new craft? So I’d say you kind of paint your roadmap. And when I say get engaged, how are you going to get there? So for me, we’ll use kind of the small modular reactor model. You know, first is I got to figure out, who’s playing in that space. So for me, like LinkedIn has been a really big tool of how I learned who is who and who’s connected to who.

And then I find, okay, here’s this person that’s in this space that I want to go to. So I’m gonna go try to meet them or at least send them a LinkedIn message and introduce myself if you’re not one that’s been real social. And then you create that connection. then again, once the connection’s there, it’s so much easier to have the conversation. And then once the conversation, then you have the relationship. And it just kind of, it’s this forward progress to get you to your end goal. So when I say getting engaged, you got to figure out what is your end

target or end goal and what are the steps you have to take to get there. And again, it could be as simple as again, getting on the internet and doing a quick search of who is this person or what is this company. But that’s what I would say is it’s kind of paint a path and just follow.

ADAMS (28:19)
Excellent, excellent advice. And then the other one, I also want to double click on this earn the right to be heard because I agree with you 100%. And it’s something that I also spend a lot of time trying to teach people how to do. And particularly for the younger folks that I’m working with now, so I’m working with undergraduates now and it’s completely new to me. But I do think that there’s some sense of it should just be a right.

to be heard, that everybody should just be able to speak up and talk and expect to be listened to. And that’s not really how it works. And so I’m curious what you see as some steps that someone can take to earn the right to be heard.

MEYER (29:05)
Absolutely. So I’m going to kind of, I got to take you back a little bit. So I mentioned the Young Life ministry early and I had a big play in my life and kind of some of the influences I had. But one of their models is with their leaders, is you’re going out to meet kids and you just keep showing up and they may not know your name, but they’re going to start to recognize your face. Then they’re going to recognize you as, you’re the Young Life person. And they’re going to say, Hey, you’re Kris with Young Life. And so you’re building on this model. And basically once, once they recognize you and you keep showing up,

then ultimately they’re going to want to listen. So very much in business development is the same thing. I show up at these events, they may not know who I am, but I’m going to wear a Barnhart logo and they’re going to say, okay, you’re the Barnhart guy. Okay. Then they’re going say, okay, what does Barnhart do? Okay. You’re Kris with Barnhart. And then slowly keep showing up. You start to earn that respect by just being there. And eventually they’re going to want to listen. And when that opportunity is to listen,

You start sharing small nuggets and then hopefully those nuggets turn into bigger nuggets. Um, and you just don’t show up and just throw, you know, throw up on them per se is, is you, you do it in steps and each person is going to receive that message differently. And so your tactic will be slightly different. Um, but that’s what I would say is start small, keep showing up, keep trying, eventually it’s a, the small nuggets built to a bigger nugget.

ADAMS (30:25)
Well, Kris, thank you so much for sharing your insights with us.

MEYER (30:28)
Absolutely glad to be here.