MEL #043 | From Paper Mill Problem Solver to Enterprise Change Leader through Triangulating for the Truth with Barbie Bigelow

BIGELOW (00:00)

I would take whatever the strategy and mission were, what we were supposed to be doing, and I would take the actions I was seeing, and I would take what the data said, and I would try to connect the dots and say, “Did these three things go together or is there some anomaly??

ADAMS (00:44)

In this episode, I speak with Barbie Bigelow, CEO of Emerald Growth Partners and an independent board director, strategist, and digital expert. Barbie is a first-generation college student who pivoted from pre-med to chemical engineering, then discovered a love for computing during an internship at a paper mill. During her internship, she saved the company millions of dollars and was offered a full-time position, but decided to pursue graduate school instead.

After graduate school, Barbie started at IBM and kept saying yes to stretch roles that led to system architect, integrator, business leader, and CIO and CTO positions across multiple industries. In our leadership segment, Barbie talks about how in her first CIO role, a unified platform proposal was rejected by the top leader. After a hard reset, she coached her team to relearn the business unit by unit, delivered targeted wins, and converted a skeptic into a champion who later endorsed the broader platform. 

Barbie’s advice to engineering leaders: be relentlessly curious, practice the now what mindset, and triangulate for the truth by aligning strategy, actions, and data. Lead with authenticity, personalize your coaching like Pat Summitt, and always do what you say. 

Explore the full episode summary, including guest bio, key takeaways, transcript, and recommended resources in the show notes at drangeliqueadams.com/podcast. 

Without further delay, here is my conversation with Barbie Bigelow.

ADAMS (02:01)

Hi, Barbie, welcome to Mastering Engineering Leadership.

BIGELOW (02:04)

Thank you, Dr. Adams. I’m delighted to be here.

ADAMS (02:07)

Yes, we are delighted to have you here. We’re so lucky to have you as such an engaged alumni, and I’m thrilled to have you here on the podcast with me today.

Can you start by telling us how you got into computer science as a background?

BIGELOW (02:20)

Yeah, sure.

So I’m going to start a little earlier than I normally do in telling this story in the hopes that

that, well, it’s just important to me for your audience to gain the wisdom from my experience and to be able to use it to both avoid and seek opportunities. So I’m a first generation college graduate. By circumstance, I was born before my mom was out of high school and my biological dad was killed when I was fairly young.

So that has colored a lot of who I am, as you probably can imagine. But I also had a tremendously supportive family, and especially my mom, who and my mom and then my stepdad.

But what I’ve said most about my mom and my upbringing is she was and is the most strategic person I’ve ever known. Might not fit the stereotype when, when, you know, the rest of the story. She lived, lives very practically, but with a, now what? Hmm. So I’ll talk a little bit more about that as we talk about.

my career and ⁓ some of the things that have happened in my career. But mostly I would say growing up, I just couldn’t wait to get started. So I was smart. And so I thought going to college meant going for the most challenging thing and the most dollars. So smart. What did I know, right?

I was one dimensional and narrow in my knowledge of what smart was. I could get A’s and I thought that’s what smart was. I now know smart is a lot more than that, right? And especially when we’re talking about leadership, it’s a lot more than that. So I studied biology and chemistry. I was pre-med because I thought I could be a doctor or a lawyer as

As a woman growing up in East Tennessee, I kind of thought those were my two options. And I did realize, I did have the acumen to know that a lawyer was probably not either in my value system or in my demeanor. So I thought I’d go for a lawyer. I thought I’d go for a doctor.

And then luckily about my senior year of school, I realized that I had no patience for routine. And I was lucky enough to have a friend who was a year or two ahead of me in med school. And wow, that was, that just was not sounding very good. That was sounding pretty, you know, going into the office every day and doing the same thing and seeing that I just took.

I decided I wasn’t gonna do that. Kind of late in the game, right? I’d already taken the MCAT, I was kind of off on that path. So then it was like, okay, now what? So I’m looking around and I found a graduate program at Auburn in chemical engineering. Again, I’m still on this path, I wanna do the hardest thing.

That sounded pretty hard to go into a graduate program in chemical engineering, not an undergraduate engineering degree. And so that program was pretty intensive in terms of all of those foundational engineering classes, right? Mass transfer and DICU and all that. And if you could get through those, then you could go into the master’s program.

BIGELOW (05:40)

So I was able to do that and I went into the master’s program at Auburn and then I got offered an internship at a paper ⁓ factory in Augusta, Georgia. Been to a paper factory, know, pretty stinky place. had to wear a hard hat and steel-toed boots. And so here I go into this internship. And without going into the long story of that internship,

⁓ It turned out as internships often do, they didn’t know what to do with me. They didn’t have things lined up. And a salesman for HP came in with a computer that they called a portable computer. It’s actually a luggable computer. It was almost as big as me.

ADAMS (06:19)

I like that luggable.

BIGELOW (06:25)

And my boss said, you know, Barbie, you’re young and smart and figure out how to do something to do with that computer. So this was really my first opportunity to learn a business. Right. I had free rein. I could go around and talk to people, find out what their problems were, see if there was something we could do with this computer to help solve their problem. And it turned out that that through many of the people that I talked to, there was a concern.

that the sulfuric acid pipeline that came into the business was not being measured correctly and that the company was overpaying for that key ingredient in the process. So we developed a way to monitor that flow and it did turn out that they were being overcharged, which is a couple million dollars. And that process saved the company a bunch of money.

relieved the manual work of somebody remembering to go and measure the flow and all of that. a little while later, my boss says, hey, they want to see you up on the Hogan-E-Roe. And I’m thinking, oh, man, I wonder if I’m in trouble. What’s going on there? So I go up to the general manager’s office. And the general manager and his staff are all in there. And I walk in.

gosh, I was scared to death, right? And they asked me about it. So I told them, you know, what we done and, and I didn’t have any of my, my material with me, which made me very nervous because I didn’t have the data, right? I was having to do all of this extra, you know, I was just having to talk, which is not my best thing. So I did that. And he says to me, he says, well, dear,

forget about going back to Auburn. we want you to stay here and work for us. So they offered me a job. ⁓ at first I was like giddy, right? Wow. Wow. You know, just, and, and then I get back to my apartment and I just felt like the walls were closing in. I felt very claustrophobic. was like, ⁓ man, I can’t imagine going into that factory every day.

and trying to find, I just, I don’t wanna do it. I don’t wanna work in a paper factory. But I got to thinking about that computer and how cool it was that we were able to solve a problem and we were able to eliminate some kind of boring work, right? And…

I said, well, I just, I’m going to go back to UT and get a degree in computer science. So it was, was not a hard decision for me to make. I was very clear that that’s what I wanted to do. This was the time when my family maybe was not supportive. You know, I’d done all this work. I was so close. Yeah. And, and to say that I was going to go back and do that. They were like, what are you doing?

But everybody turned around after a while and I did that and it was a great, great experience at UT. And from there, I took a job at IBM and my career certainly turned out very differently probably than it would have if I had stayed in computer science. I will share when Dr. Adams

when I went to IBM, so I had been studying parsers. That was what I did my master’s in at UT. And I go into IBM and I’m gonna share this because again, I hope maybe it will help some folks and not have to kind of have a couple of the pains that I had in my first job.

So yeah, yeah, so I go in my first day into our team meeting. My boss is there and the team is there. And my boss says to everyone, he introduces me and he says, so Barbie comes to us from, she just finished her master’s in parsing and.

She’s going to identify all the places where this team is currently failing and fix it.

ADAMS (10:32)

wow. What a way to get the rest of the people to welcome you,

BIGELOW (10:36)

So yeah, and Dr. Adams, here I am. I’m really proud of the work that I’ve done. And I’ve just defended my thesis. I’m like, yeah.

ADAMS (10:45)

So

BIGELOW (10:47)

Yeah. And I had no idea. I had no idea, you know, that he’d just sabotage me. I had no idea. I’m like, why doesn’t anybody like me?

ADAMS (10:57)

Hahaha!

BIGELOW (10:58)

Yeah. And the team is some, some of them are second and third generation IBMers and they’re from Cornell and Caltech and Notre Dame and Ohio State. know, they’re from, these are smart people. Some of them actually had 10 years of experience. mean, you know, these are smart people. Yeah. So what did I do? I, you know, I just leaned in on the learning and say, I did not have.

the EQ and real acumen that I wish I had had then to deal with the team dynamics and to step back from that and say, hey, that’s not actually really true, right? We’re gonna do this together. Right. I didn’t have that. Luckily, that boss didn’t last too long and there were other great leaders there and it turned out okay.

But, you know, I share that because if it happens to you, take a breath and don’t get too into yourself.

ADAMS (11:55)

Yeah, right.

Yes, yes.

BIGELOW (12:00)

So at IBM, I had the opportunity to go into a lead program management role. you know, what I would say about that in terms of looking back is it’s the best thing I did was to say yes. I look, I never felt like I was ready for a new role. And I always felt like there was more to do.

⁓ But I leaned in a little bit and said, well, if somebody believes enough in me to suggest that I try this, I should do it. And I did that almost every two years in my career. And so that really is how I was able to go from

know, IBM, Delochi from a programmer to a system architect to a systems integrator, to a business leader, to the director of technology, CTO kind of roles in cyber and work in the intelligence community and into AI and into architecture engineering, construction, private equity, all the things that I’ve had the opportunity to do was really fundamentally by just

taking that leap if somebody believed in me and going for it.

ADAMS (13:13)

Where do you think that mindset came from about being willing, even if you didn’t feel ready, being willing to say, know, I respect the people that see this in me and I’m going to give it a try.

BIGELOW (13:26)

You know, I think it goes back to my family believing in me and that fundamental, can do anything that I got from my grandparents. I think that’s part of it. And the other part was knowing that if I failed, I could go home. Right. And I often would think about that and say, okay, well, you know, if this doesn’t work out, you know, given where I came from,

Yeah. Yeah. You know, I’m not going to be going all the way back to where I came from if this doesn’t work out. So it’ll be okay. So it’s family and it’s faith, I think.

ADAMS (13:59)

Yeah, think that’s so important. The other thing you said, I love what you said about the other side too, which is, you moved a lot and you said you always felt like there was more to do. And I do feel like there are many people who hold themselves back thinking, okay, I haven’t finished this. want to keep, you know, what I’m leaving isn’t ready. But you’re saying, you know, I know it’s not done. I could have done more, but I’m ready for the next thing. Can you talk a little bit about that other side of the coin as well?

BIGELOW (14:24)

Yeah, you know, and sometimes there was someone that I really felt like could step in and that gave me great joy, right? As a coach and a mentor, that gave me great joy to know that somebody else is gonna be able to, maybe they weren’t quite ready, but they could get there. And then there were a couple of times when it was like, geez, you know, what’s gonna happen here? And all the work that I did is, is it gonna be for not?

You know, it’s just, it’s one of those choices you’ve got to make. And, you know, it’s kind of like, I tell people when they say, well, you know, Barbie, how did you have it all? How did you have a family? And I’m like, well, you really don’t, right? When it comes time to make decisions, you got to make the decision and it’ll never be perfect.

ADAMS (15:21)

All right, Barbie, can you give us an example of how you had to use leadership skills in your work?

BIGELOW (15:25)

Yeah, I can.

ADAMS (15:27)

Okay,

this is only an hour long segment, so I know you’ve got so many because you’ve had such an amazing career, but maybe we can narrow it down to one or two.

BIGELOW (15:37)

So I’m gonna share this one about when I had my first job as CIO. And I’m gonna do this one really in the hopes that again, the audience can skip some of the steps and pains that are in this story. Yes. Okay, so I’m not gonna give the backstory on how I actually got my first CIO job. It is kind of an interesting story in terms of

and kind of doing something to help the business and not expecting the results. And then it turned out to be a really cool gig. So I’m in my first role as CIO and it is the first role for the part of the organization that I’m in. And I’m brought in to do what I’m kind of known for doing, right? Find the value for the business and deliver it. And so it’s pretty complex.

business, Dr. Adams, know, 22 different business units, you could kind of tell where people came from based on the systems they were using, right, because it was a bunch of acquisitions. And, and we had this term called de-conflictation, you know, where parts of the business were after the same business and trying to figure out how to do that, parts of the business were using their same part.

right, but they’re using it and calling it one thing and they’re using. So, you know, there was a lot of chaos in trying to really merge these 22 businesses. So we, you know, we did a lot of analysis on what the issues were. I obviously went to a lot of strategy sessions and business sessions, kind of hearing what people were dealing with and, and, Hey, we found it. Right. We had a good ROI. We had manageable risks.

It was a beautiful plan. We were gonna put this new platform in and it was going to do product design and supply chain and it was gonna be great. So I presented it and there was a little bit of discussion, a couple of leaders who weren’t entirely bought in. know, they’re, hmm, I think this is kind of risky for my part of the business or my margins are a thin. I don’t think I could contribute to that.

thinking it’s going pretty well. And so that discussion happens and then we get to the end and the boss is kind of going through all the stuff that has been presented and he says, no. Not doing that. So man, did I have a big imposter moment. I had failed, I had failed womankind, had…

failed, ⁓ all my fears of failure I failed, my career was over. I was just about in tears. It was really tough. I just did not expect that. So your meeting ends and I had a rough, rough night. The next day I go into my boss. had really looking back on it, kind of a bit of a tantrum with my boss. Just to kind of like, what do you mean this was

kind of just trying to convince him that to change his mind. you know, he was tough. But looking back, how grateful I am that he was. And he explained to me that, you know, if we went forward and everyone wasn’t 100 % bought in, that he just couldn’t risk, right? The way he put it to me was, I can’t risk that somebody will blame you.

for missing their numbers. I can’t risk that this is going to happen. So, so now what?

So what happened next was, you know, I did some mentoring with my team. said, look, we’re going to have to dig in. We’re to have to figure out different ways of going about this. We’re going to have to lean in on learning the business more and what the challenges and the goals are in each of these 22 segments, which for, you know, a bunch of engineers just seemed like redundant work.

We already had the answer. We already had the elegant technical solution. You know, it just seemed like, why do we need to go about this? But we did. And there was one part of the business that was going after a new piece of business that we were not currently in. And we took a piece of the solution to help them go after that business.

there was actually a part of the supply chain they were really struggling with. And we use the solution to kind of help them align and optimize that piece of the design. And they were able to prevail. So that new platform stuff was still in play. We had bits and pieces here. But honestly, if we went forward, it was going to be on a much slower path.

without the ROI that we were looking for, we were hoping to get. And then there’s the next strategy session with the whole group. So kind of a replay of that meeting. I’m not on the agenda. So there’s some other things on the agenda and as happens in business, right? Priorities changed a little bit.

So we’re having, we have that session and at the end, my boss is wrapping up and he says, so just want to know what everybody kind of thinks about that platform thing that we’ve got briefed, Barbie brief last time and should we just table it or, you know, what should we be doing with that? And that leader that won the business. So he stood up and he says, if there was ever a time to do the new platform, it’s now.

And we’re lucky to have Barbie help us lead it. I would not, and he says, I would not have mine XYZ without her.

ADAMS (21:03)

That’s amazing. I love that story. There’s actually several things I’d like to dig in on if you don’t mind, Barbie. So first, I love the way you framed it, which is to say you were brought in to do what you always do, which is to find the value and deliver it. And I love that because, first of all, of course, we want all of our engineering students and all aspiring leaders will get to that point if they want to continue to progress in their careers. So hopefully sooner rather than later.

that your reputation is about delivering value. And so, of course, that means you need domain expertise and you need to learn how to lead people and all of those things. But when you can get to the point that that is your reputation, I think that’s really a great thing. And, Barbie, I’m curious just if you have any…

Any thoughts about, know, did you always have that mindset going? I was lucky to have a mentor my very first job and he was like, you need to know exactly how much money you are delivering to, you know, you’re delivering to this company, you know, indirectly, know, junior engineer, you’re not, you know, delivering products or anything yet, but you need to at least understand how the math works, how we get to your, from your contributions to, to, you know, value in the company. And I’m curious where that mindset came for you.

BIGELOW (22:21)

Well, so it came from that first internship. ⁓ yes. Right? Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, having that experience and having that really positive reinforcement.

was really a big deal in terms of that mindset. And then I think the culture at IBM also was very helpful in developing that initially. And then I think the other thing that happened was the…

The work that I was doing and the business before I went into IT, before the CIO role, oftentimes I would do something I’ve nicknamed triangulate, right? Which is I would take whatever the strategy and mission, what we were supposed to be doing, and I would take the actions I was seeing, and I would take what the data said, and I would try to connect the dots and say,

Did these three things go together or is there some anomaly, right? Are we saying we want to do something but our actions don’t align to it? Or are we trying to do the strategy and the data is showing that it’s not working. So by triangulating those three things, I think has helped me tremendously as I look through the different roles that I’ve had.

in getting to the truth. So, you know, I’ve nicknamed that triangulating for the truth.

ADAMS (23:49)

I like that. Okay, that’s great. Another thing that you mentioned, of course, you have this big meeting and it absolutely does not go the way you had expected and you have to lick your wounds and you talk to the boss. But I’m curious how you managed your own sort of self-regulation, your own emotional intelligence components are coming into play to say, right,

got to do something different. What was sort of your internal dialogue that had you say, all right, I need to get through this? And because you could have also just said, you know what, I’m done here and go do something else. Yeah.

BIGELOW (24:27)

Yeah. Yeah. Well, so this is why I’m so big on mentoring, right? Cause I think everybody needs to know that this might happen. And if you, if you have the opportunity to do some visualization beforehand, it’s a tremendous help. I didn’t really handle this as well. Again, looking back, you know, Monday morning quarterbacking as I could, but I did know that

fundamentally I had come into a role because there was some dysfunction there. I knew that the leaders already had, they had some suspicion, I guess you would say, around IT’s ability to help them. And so there was some past there that I was up against.

So, you know, I did look at that and say, okay, well, okay, part of this is because of that. So I did, it’s again, a little bit of a triangulation thing that I learned to do through that experience. And that was what was my intention? What part of my intention was really what it should have been and what of it was ego? Be really look at my intention, reflect on that.

So do some reflection, figure out what I could do better. Right. And this is where the now what also comes in. Okay. So now what, what can I do better? And then forgive myself for the other. Yeah. It’s probably the hardest thing I think to do for me personally is the forgiveness part. spend way too much time going, I should have, could have, should have done it.

ADAMS (25:59)

Yep, same.

what works for you? Well,

BIGELOW (26:01)

Well,

it kind of goes back to my mom saying, now what? Pick yourself up and on, girl. That’s what you got to do.

ADAMS (26:04)

yeah, yeah.

Yeah, same here. mean, sometimes it only takes a few minutes. Other times it takes a couple of days, but eventually you get to the whole story. All right, enough.

BIGELOW (26:19)

Drew Barrymore did a piece recently on being your best friend. don’t know if you saw that. And that really resonated with me. She said, look, if you’re not your own best friend, who is? Yeah. Right. Exactly. So, and you would forgive your best friend. Absolutely. I mean, anything we’re talking about, You forgive your best friend in a nanosecond. Yes. is nothing, right?

ADAMS (26:34)

Absolutely.

Yeah, agreed. The last thing I wanted to talk about is you mentioned, you know, you get the feedback, you come back and you and you go to your team and you say, we’re going to have to approach this differently. And they’re like, this is a waste of time. We know we know how this should be done. So can you talk a little bit about how you manage the team, how you manage their emotional state as a group and kind of kept them going?

and redirecting them when it sounds like they were, sure, disappointed, but also really felt like, we gave you the right answer the first time, boss. Like, why are we going back to the drawing board?

BIGELOW (27:16)

Yeah, you know, and this is a frustrating part about leadership because, you’re put in the leadership role. you know, so the your leaders, your boss, they have demonstrated their faith in you and then your team doesn’t believe you. It can be really frustrating. you know, under realizing that, you know, you have stakeholders above and below you and around you.

You know, there’s three sets at least of stakeholders and caring for your team and helping them through it is as important as your reputation with your peers and you know, how the leadership views you. It’s kind of the one area, you know, there’s the command and control leadership and there’s the service leadership, you know,

This kind of situation requires all of them.

ADAMS (28:09)

Yeah, I appreciate you saying that because I do feel like, you know, and I don’t know if it’s just the business literature or the business books or, the different gurus, but I do think there’s this misconception that there’s like this one right way to lead, or you always have to be like a leader as a coach, or you always have to be the certain thing. And in my experience, and it sounds like yours as well, my experience has been you need to be adaptable, and you need to, and sometimes,

You you can be more expansive, allow people to try different things, be more in a coaching mindset. And other times you just have to say, no, this is what we’re doing, here’s why. You know, oftentimes, know, urgency or even safety involved, things like that. And so I think the best leaders can assess their situation and bring the right leadership skills and mindset and approach to the right situation.

And also when you’re able to do that, then your team also recognizes, okay, yeah, normally she asks for my input, but right now she’s not, there must be a reason why, right? And so now we’ve got to adapt too. So I don’t know if that’s been your experience as well, but that’s.

BIGELOW (29:18)

Well, and you know, one person that I admire greatly and that I actually use her leadership style in coaching with my teams is Pat Summit. you know, Pat was the pioneer in personalized coaching. Right? And so if you watch tapes of Pat, know, she’s in one player space.

And then another player, she’s got her arm on her shoulder and then another player she’s healing and looking up at her. Right. And so she either intuitively or over, you know, the, many decades that she did that work, right. Learned the effectiveness of personalized coaching. And so I do spend a lot of time with my teams.

with my leaders and then in coaching my leaders to work with their teams to say, look, you’ve got to really understand where people are coming from, right? And what their motivations are and kind of even a little bit of what are they really working on? And again, triangulate a little bit, map up to that.

ADAMS (30:38)

All right, Barbie, as we wrap up, what advice do you have for engineers who are interested in pursuing leadership roles?

BIGELOW (30:44)

Well, wow, go for it. Number one, it’s probably going to be, it will be the best. It’s the best job in the world. know, engineers solve problems. We solve all kinds of problems. We make the quality of life better. You know, we make people’s jobs easier. I can go on and on. Being an engineer is the best thing to do.

It’s the best way to make an impact, truly make an impact. So I guess my advice then in doing it, obviously there’s the, you know, getting through the academics of it and keep staying focused on doing that when it’s your time to do that.

Maybe even more important is the opportunities you have to try things. And, you know, the more time I spend with the university now that I’ve been away for a while is how precious those opportunities are. There’s no downside to trying things.

and you’ve got opportunities to try almost anything in the university setting. being fearless in terms of trying things when you’re in that space, and that includes internships and co-ops. So leaning in on the learning when you’re in those environments, nobody’s gonna fire you in an internship, right? So asking the questions, going and figuring out how the business works,

end to end, learn the whole value chain while you’re there. You know, I think that’s, that’s one thing I’d say and take that ability and that learning and curiosity with you the rest of your life. You’ll, that’s probably the best skill, the most important skill you can have. The other thing is now what? Both in terms of being strategic about

you know, playing the chess game, if you will, of, okay, I’m here and what happens if we move this piece here and this piece here and kind of doing that simulation with yourself. But also the aspect of now what, which is, okay, what happened happened, right? You probably can’t change that. So from where we are right now, what do do? What’s next? Now what?

The little triangulation for the truth thing. There’s a lot of ways to apply that strategy action data is one way. Another way is, you know, intention reflection, forgiveness. You could probably, I’d love to hear from some, some of the folks in your audience, Dr. Adams on other ways they think about triangulating. Right. I think that that model works in a lot of different, a lot of different situations to help you get to the truth.

One thing we haven’t talked about is transparency or being authentic. Yeah. And so I think that’s also really important. You know, I went into a role one time where the culture was pretty toxic when I got there. And I was actually told by my immediate reports, look, everybody believes this was a cronyism place and

the leader that was here before you did what they thought was right. They picked who they wanted. There was no dialogue. It was a very insular, incestuous kind of thing. So one thing we did was we held all hands meetings where everybody had an opportunity to say what the questions were gonna be beforehand. And we ran the meeting based on what they asked.

So it was complete transparency and very authentic in terms of the answers. And I was amazed at how fast the culture changed. So you hear all the time, change is hard, change takes a long time. Actually, if people are engaged, it doesn’t. I mean, it’s just like with your iPhone.

Right? When you get an update on your iPhone, you take the update and you change your behavior based on whatever happened because you want to use your iPhone. So the same is true as a leader. When you align with what people need and you’re authentic with them, you can make change happen very fast.

I guess the last thing is, do what you say. It’s a little bit cliche and fundamental, but, and if you can’t do what you say, if your priorities have changed or something, be clear about it. Don’t just let it lie and be embarrassed. gosh, I’m not gonna be able to do that.

Be kind of transparent about it and always try to do what you say.

ADAMS (35:18)

Barbie, thank you so much for sharing your insights with us today.

BIGELOW (35:21)

happy to do it, Dr. Adams, and like, you would expect me to say, go Vols!

ADAMS (35:26)

Go vols indeed.